Spotting System

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

I read Zoors post in the Things I've noticed in .7 thread about spotting and I felt it deserved a discussion of it's own. Zoors raised a very good point in his post:

How to use the compass... The reference is always myself. Tell the APC standing 50 meters away right east, that an enemy is like 145 degress 300m ? I do not have a distance meter. How you do?

Well if that enemy was near, right behind the APC, it would be 145 for me, but 180 for the APC. But the it was not 300m, merely 100m distance.

On 300 meter distance the error would be like 5 degrees, then you add 5 degrees, so the correct call would be "-Enemy 150 degrees 300 meter South East"

Well do that math in battle... No way.

In real life, you would say like "enemy southwest 300 meters two fingers from the tallest tree, behind the stone on right."

By "two fingers" you mean your straight arm, measuring two fingers on your hand in front of you.

Try do that in this game... I cannot be done.

So what is the solution?

GPS. A binocular with distance and reference coordinate system from a built in GPS.
Clicking on the binocular, or the night vision, will send the coordinates to your squad members GPS receivers (the minimap) giving a little dot. Maybe not a moving dot, like in the BF2 radar, but a dot, just like the questionmarks you did produce when spotting nothing in 0.6.
That way your gizmos can give an accurate direction spot to the squad, and if command post is built, also to the whole team that is within reasonable area or firing range.


So my suggestion is that the radar is modified and works like a global or local spotting system with GPS assisted spotting (no infrared that shows moving spots).

That works in reality. So why not in PR?

I too find the compass system flawed, because all bearings are relative to each player.

Example: I spot an enemy soldier at 100m, bearing 045 from me (NE). My fireteam member is 90 to my east at a distance of 70m. Using some geometry, that puts the enemy at 70m due north of my fireteam member, 000 on his compass. If I say on voip "Contact, bearing 045, 100m", he would turn to 045 and is in fact looking parallel to my line of sight, so he would not see the contact at all. He has to know my position and run a quick COS and SIN to figure out where the enemy is, and then when he respawns on the rally (because he died while typing into his calculator), he can come back for vengeance.

Here is an illustration (yes, I am NOT a graphic artist):



So, does anyone an have idea how to deal with this?

One way, although certainly not the best, is to follow the tracer fire and open up on that area if you don't have a clear line of sight. Other ideas?

[Betterdeadthanred]

Eeew geometry. I found the compass is only useful when you are communicating between members of the same vehicle, otherwise just call down grid coordinates and location relative to landmarks.

[DoorGunner53E]

Just think if they incorporated BDHI into the aircraft. :-) I think what you may be trying to solve is a perplexing situation. So, it will be up to the squadleaders to initiate some kind of SOP while moving into an area in a general direction. This is a tough subject even in real life, the Land Navigation Course eats up many servicemen. The general rule I can think of to use here to identify enemies would be "We are going in this direction, Left to Right from the SL in degrees 45', 90', 180', to target + 000? meters". It will be hard if the SM's are not in the same area as you are. Also, using the landmark system is always helpful, " I am going in the direction to the trees by the rocky outcropping". Then, "Contact right 45' from my position 50 meters". Hopefully most will know what degrees are in relation to and what degree heading the rocky outcropping was and you give then the heading from your vantage point to the target.

[d1sp0sabl3H3r0]

Originally Posted by DoorGunner53E

Just think if they incorporated BDHI into the aircraft. :-) I think what you may be trying to solve is a perplexing situation. So, it will be up to the squadleaders to initiate some kind of SOP while moving into an area in a general direction. This is a tough subject even in real life, the Land Navigation Course eats up many servicemen. The general rule I can think of to use here to identify enemies would be "We are going in this direction, Left to Right from the SL in degrees 45', 90', 180', to target + 000? meters". It will be hard if the SM's are not in the same area as you are. Also, using the landmark system is always helpful, " I am going in the direction to the trees by the rocky outcropping". Then, "Contact right 45' from my position 50 meters". Hopefully most will know what degrees are in relation to and what degree heading the rocky outcropping was and you give then the heading from your vantage point to the target.

This would work as long as the squad follows some discipline. SL must establish formation, put down a marker, and every call is relative to the marker. This would eliminate confusion over which rock or which tree, etc.

"Contact, right of mark, 50 m" might be helpful - at least the squad would be in the ballpark and can fine-tune from that.

SL, start putting move markers at 100m intervals (less), keep the formations tight, and see how it works.

I found the compass is only useful when you are communicating between members of the same vehicle

100% correct there - that is really the only place where it works well.

[AFsoccer]

Yes, that is why I was recommending that squads stay fairly close together so that they can find the target. If they are all spread out then the heading will be very different. I think with infantry, it's best to give cardinal directions (S, SW, E, etc.) and then a landmark (behind the red dumpster).... or combine the two (west of the white and orange building). But in vehicles, using the compass can also be a nice tool, if you both know how to read one.

[Delta*RandyShugart*]

i think we might need to get our PR PhD's.

I know how to spot with the officer kit (disposable next time we will et our jet to bomb that tank before its shot down) but how do you spot with the spec ops kit? I know with the officer kit you can look at a tree and send a laser designator, but with the spec ops kit i am still cluless, is it only an option if there is armor around?

[Bamboo]

I actually died a few times last night because I had the map open trying to figure out where my squad leader was in relation to me so I could figure out where the enemy contacts were in relation to the SL.
Hard to shoot back when you have the map open

[Bernout]

Originally Posted by Bamboo

I actually died a few times last night because I had the map open trying to figure out where my squad leader was in relation to me so I could figure out where the enemy contacts were in relation to the SL.
Hard to shoot back when you have the map open

I think there's a transparency setting for the main map that you can set. Personally, I'm going to be making my first foray into 0.7 tonight and am going to see how feasible it is to keep that map open all the time. I can't believe they got rid of the minimap. Yuck.

Bernout

[Nero]

Two verbal spotting methods:

1) Compass bearing and distance (eg "Contact 150 degrees at 50m") - as stated by disposable, this method is confusing when allies not stacked together (as in a tank or apc). The mental effort required to work out where the squadmate who made the report is and then trying to figure out how those bearings relate to oneself is very heavy work, especially in the middle of a firefight. Even just having to move your eyes from the center of screen to the compass at the bottom breaks the gameplay, and if you have to pull up the map to help work out the coords you're now so distracted from the environment your situational awareness is now severely limited.

2) Relative location to a landmark/marker (eg "Contact northern building 2nd floor", "Contact 20m north of marker") - a much better method as it keeps the player focussed on the screen, and requires less mental effort. It does depend on players knowing the maps well to know where major/minor landmarks are. I like the idea about keeping the squad marker close by to act as a point of reference for communication especially when there are not many landmarks around (open field), or the environment is heavily crowded (eg forest hills).

3) Combination of 1) and 2) - because it takes such effort to get used to the compass method (1) there is no point combining these methods. It's more efficient to concentrate on using one particular method and get the squad used to that.

[llPANCHOll]

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

So, does anyone have idea how to deal with this?

One way, although certainly not the best, is to follow the tracer fire and open up on that area if you don't have a clear line of sight. Other ideas?

I believe if you have the squad in two fireteams... the fireteams stay tight and you have your mini-map up at 100% transperency... If one of your fireteam members call out a distance and heading you will know where the enemy is... if the other fireteam calls out a distance and heading.. because they are on the minimap, you instantly know where they are in relationship to you and can best guess a solution. That is if you know your squaddies voices well enough to tell which fireteam is calling it out.

The real trick is going to be the instinctual knowedge of distance.. and this will just take time..

I like landmark references.. but to often I hear "By the corner of that building over there.. by my dead body" and unless its the squad leader.. or the guy that Ive tagged with a WHITE blip... I just dont know what there talking about.

As for tracer fire... often It seems I see the tracer fire traveling backwards... seems that it is an optical illusion.. of tracer fire heading towards the person that is firing the rounds....... not away from them.. does this ever happen to anyone else??

[llPANCHOll]

Originally Posted by Bernout

I think there's a transparency setting for the main map that you can set. Personally, I'm going to be making my first foray into 0.7 tonight and am going to see how feasible it is to keep that map open all the time. I can't believe they got rid of the minimap. Yuck.

Bernout

Its not that bad.. you cant use the mouse wheel while its up but ive been trying to figure a way to disable that wheel for a while now... if you zoom the map in it drops the grid lines out of your line of sight and makes for a much better situational awareness, and since the Q spot doesnt work for telling friend from foe.. but simply calls everything foe.. it helps to keep the TK'ing down...

[Sabre_Tooth_Tigger]

I do what bernout said, an open see through map. It can be a pain but its a fair compromise imo

I too find the compass system flawed, because all bearings are relative to each player

Its relative to every player and completely independant, you need another point to seal the exact location though. Either the SL or the flag you both are walking around

Originally Posted by d1sp0sabl3H3r0

I would say

Saw gunner NE of SL 5 100m closing

or

SAW NW of refinery 100m closing

Dont worry about the trigonometry. Whoever is listening, be they at the flag pole or 100m NW of it, they need to figure out how relevant the info is to them.
You just need to use the right channel, after voip a tank should be spotted manually and repeated in text on teamchat ideally then laser designated if possible.




Two common frames of reference and a commonly known distance (100m is the nearest distance a rally point can be to a flag, every pr player should have considered this)

He knows where you are (or he'll have to open the map sorry). He knows where NE is (its marked on the bottom of his screen or the map indicates it) Hopefully thats good enough for him to look in the right direction, I dont believe in using right/left it ends up with the squad in a group holding hands too afraid to spread out in case they lose touch


I would not use landmarks generally unless its a building which can be entered/occupied or climbed maybe. Refer to flags (and collectively the flag buildings), hopefully you share the same flag and its marked with an attack objective even


If you dont use the map at all, then you need something like a North star. Something you can always refer to, you basically need to always know where north is relative to your surroundings. Establish with your squad which side of the flag buildings is the north and work from there, after a while it will become instinctive?


Qwai fishing flag, Fenced area is north of the flag so 'saw gunner NW (of flag) 100m' should be instantly understandable?


Right now I cant think on the new maps, which side is the north side of each flag but I can for the 0.6 new maps, eg. mestia west tower, the north side is the forked sloping dirt road leading to the flag.

'Hostile 100m North of tower'

Even if Iam at the perimeter base 1, I know that enemy is walking up that dirt road towards the open entrance of the flag basically. The distance I have to the enemy is something I will have to judge myself



I dont agree with this guy on everything but he has lots of ideas to try out:

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp2.html#contactreports

[snooggums]

I've found that a general NE/NW/N/S designation works fairly well in most cases since since I suck at judging range anyway the engagements are done at range. With vehicles like tanks using the compass works wonders though.

[Steiner]

I really dont see a major issue here...Use the clock-system. While on the move, 12 o'clock is always over the SL and the way the squad is moving. Easy to call out contact:

"Enemy infantry 2 o'clock, 150meters".

While, perhaps, on defence and the squad is being still, then it is up to the SL to call out to the squad which landmark, or other feature, that is 12 o'clock and also include other landmarks as points of reference.

As pointed out before, if you dont have VOIP, this will be difficult. But to my experience is this how it works in reality.

[TerribleOne]

A train approaches you from 3 miles to the east going 24 mph . From the opposite direction another train approaches from 150 meters going 30 mph. If you do not get out of the way, when will the trains hit you?