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View Full Version : Petition for 3.0 seconds suicide timer.



StarClaws
04-04-2008, 03:36 AM
I would like the 3.0 seconds suicide timer. Keep it more default and standard please.

I understand that it could possibly be abused but nothing that comes to mind that would potentially harm the server too much. And if it does... thats what admins are for.

ImAWuss
04-04-2008, 11:43 AM
My Vote: Ney.

StarClaws
04-04-2008, 08:05 PM
Mind elaborating on why?

Wyzcrak
04-05-2008, 01:38 AM
Regarding elaboration: "standard and default" is not compelling.

What do you need right now that you can't have with a 15 second suicide timer?

Lt.Asher
04-05-2008, 02:14 AM
Granted I'm playing somewhat the devils advocate here... and my gameplay/knowledge is 4 years old...

But isn't 15 seconds a painfully long time? Like second coming of Christ long time in FPS games? If I remember correctly suicide was painfully overpowered, I'm not sure where it lies now. But I would think that a 15 second timer on Suicide would require massive ammounts of teamwork (which I'm not knocking, don't get me wrong) but it seems that instead of allowing for some lea-way into creative personal touches that we'd be forcing the hand of a team to either use suicide fully or not at all with that long of a timer.

Just some food for thought... who knows, may give you food poisoning.

ImAWuss
04-05-2008, 07:33 PM
Suicide, while part of the game, doesn't contribute to your team. Personally, the only time that I can see this being used is at the end of a game, where there's no hope left. I compare it to "Jumping in the pit" or "off the cliff".

Bottom line, there's nothing wrong with 15 seconds.

Lt.Asher
04-05-2008, 08:05 PM
That's all well and good... but it's a poor argument at best.

Saying suicide doesn't add anything to team playing is no argument for making the timer 15 seconds. If people are blowing themselves up and not being team players, that's an issue with the players and not with the ability.

The equivilent of your argument is saying snipers should be disabled on a rush map because there are no sniping positions. It holds no merrit and the core problem still lies with the player and not with the ability.

lush
04-05-2008, 08:42 PM
I still haven't heard a valid reason for why it SHOULD be anything less than 15 seconds.

I can't remember the last time I even used /kill, nor can I think of any reason within the game that dying in 3 secs has any advantage over dying in 15.

Since TGNS has been configured this way for, what years?, I don't think "I'm impatient" is gonna be a good enough reason for us to change it now.

Agamemnon
04-05-2008, 11:32 PM
I think the reasoning behind the 15 seconds is essentially a 'realism' argument. One of the things the TG primer mentions is trying to keep games as close as possible to a realistic simulation. With the classification of NS as an 'action' game, we don't see much of that, but this setting does predate that classification. Basically, the idea is that it's not very realistic to intentionally die so that you can reappear in a better position. Ordering people to kill themselves just isn't quite right... "Hey NSplayer, kill yourself." "Sir, yes sir."

As to the 'suicide is poor teamwork' argument, I don't think that holds up. When comming, there have been many times when I would have ordered someone to suicide if we had the instant timer present on some servers and didn't have any rule against it. I've lost a number of games where nobody was dying and we were left open to a base rush. It's easy to see this coming, but with nobody spawning there aren't many options to respond to it that don't carry a high cost or risk (remote beacon, relocate, marines running home, comm hopping out). As it is, I will often order a marine in a poor position to push into the hive with the intention of that marine respawning to build or do something more useful after his death. On the alien side, if the spawn queue is empty and you've hit lifeform/chamber res, a fast suicide would often be beneficial to your team.

I'm not arguing in favor of changing the timer, as I don't think frequent suicides would make for a more enjoyable game, but I wanted to make sure that we understood some of the changes we would see by reducing the suicide timer.

Wyzcrak
04-07-2008, 05:48 AM
Discussion on this is fine, but it needn't drag on.

The thread will be closed sometime on Tuesday night, I imagine. Any compelling arguments will need to be made by then.

zibalatz
04-07-2008, 01:16 PM
I think the case that the pro-reduced timer camp has to make is to give examples of cases where actions made possible by a reduced timer have legitimate gameplay reasons that do not border on exploitation/unrealism.

Ag's example is not accepted as a valid tactic here, for the same reason that f4ing and rejoining is not.

An example of where kill-suiciding is valid is being stuck on a portion of the map and /stuck not being sufficient to dislodge oneself. In that case, though, the current timer is sufficient.

My Vote: Neigh.

I like horsies.

Kerostasis
04-07-2008, 02:42 PM
If you really need to kill yourself, maps are usually filled with convenient pits, ledges, and skulks that will gladly fill your need to move on to the next life. While being able to kill yourself at the touch of a button is occasionally a useful strategic ability, most of those uses border on exploitive -- if you can offer some strategic use that does not appear exploitive, by all means offer it for our consideration. Otherwise 15 seconds is fine.

Agamemnon
04-07-2008, 06:06 PM
If you really need to kill yourself, maps are usually filled with convenient pits, ledges, and skulks that will gladly fill your need to move on to the next life. While being able to kill yourself at the touch of a button is occasionally a useful strategic ability, most of those uses border on exploitive -- if you can offer some strategic use that does not appear exploitive, by all means offer it for our consideration. Otherwise 15 seconds is fine.

So we've run in to a bit of a problem in this discussion, in that we don't have a definition of what is actually an 'exploit'. Zib states that the examples I provided are not 'valid' tactics, presumably because they appear 'exploitative', but again, we don't have any clear idea of what that means. I think the unconscious definition being used here is very similar to 'any strategic or tactical advantage derived from using the kill command'.

The problem is that definition exactly fits what you are asking people to provide, which means any successful example is automatically considered to be an exploit by the very criteria that are used to judge its success. Before asking for examples of legitimate use, you need to provide a standard to judge what is legitimate, without going into circular logic by referring to whether it appears 'exploitative' (which is undefined).

If you want to say that it should stay at 15 seconds to avoid uses that violate the realism clause in the primer, that's fine and I completely agree. All I ask is that you don't pretend that you're offering an opportunity for people to provide 'valid' strategic uses when you are unable to provide any clear standard for what is considered 'valid'.

Once you've provided a standard, then we can consider whether rfk denial or suiciding to return to the base/hive is actually legitimate.

blu.knight
04-07-2008, 07:47 PM
Once you've provided a standard, then we can consider whether rfk denial or suiciding to return to the base/hive is actually legitimate.

I can't provide a standard, though my opinion on those two strategies i can; and maybe this will help us deduce a standard.

rfk denial is an exploit because you break game mechanics by doing it. RFK is in the game for a reason. If you are about to die and hit /kill not only does it frustrate players, but you are cheating the system.

On the other hand, killing yourself to return to base seems like a valid strategy to me, and is no different than jumping in a pit or purposely letting an alien eat you. We allow the second two. The reason I don't consider it an exploit is that it is basically the same as the two situations I just outlined, and in doing so you add one more player to the spawn queue and need to wait to respawn. I don't think this is cheating the system.

edit: While I think suicide for movement is a legitimate strategy, I also think this detracts from the 'realism'. I feel that we should not reduce the timer to 3 seconds for these stategies, but as some have said, 15 seconds is a hell of a long time in the world of NS. If you actually get stuck in a map (which is really the only valid reason I see for using kill in TGNS) you spend a decent amount of time trying to get yourself unstuck before actually resorting to suicide. For this reason, I think the timer should be reduced to help prevent the frustration I, and many others, have felt due to map glitches.

FireFly
04-07-2008, 09:24 PM
If you want "realism" suicide timer should be instant since I'm pretty sure when you point a gun at your head and pull the trigger you die right away.. not in 15 seconds. In any case, wouldn't 5 seconds be reasonable? Any lifeform should be able to kill you before you suicide so they'll get their rfk and its not so long as to be fustrating in other situations.

Wyzcrak
04-08-2008, 01:25 AM
The driver for the 15-second timer mod isn't something I can explain in black and white. It's all sorts of gray. And it's the status quo, for better or for worse. I don't even know if we announced it when we changed it, and I don't recall a lot (read: "a lot") of complaining when we did.

Did I overlook the "compelling"? Also, hoping to hear more from StarClaws.

td.alakad
04-08-2008, 09:12 AM
Suicide is incredibly helpful when relocating. Pre-phasegates the comm can instantly be transported to the new relocate spot and unlock the 15 res available from recycling the chair, essentially voiding the inital cost of the relocate and making him able to actively protect the new relocation spot.

It's also helpful for reasons already posted. When fighting a lifeform, 3 seconds is usually enough for them to kill you, let alone the 5 seconds suggested. If a lifeform can't kill you in 15 seconds, they really don't deserve the kill. Denying your enemy valuable RFK is an important and very tactical strategy. Reducing the suicide timer would result (if people used it correctly) in newbie aliens having less res to waste and better players being able to support the team and teaching the newbies how to support the team without going bad fade and dying with 5 seconds. Also, forcing newbies to spend more time as skulk, and feel the pressure of having to kill a marine within 5 seconds or less (depending on the marine, of course) would increase their skill level by giving them a challenge to accomplish.

Also, let's not forget the lols! Like say, a marine, being rushed by an onos, who dies to suicide when the onos is running away and has 2 hp.

Sometimes it's just not possible to drop your gun in time. Suicide forces the not so good marines to do it automatically at the push of a button, albeit delayed.

There are already pseudo tactics for this suicide strategy such as sitting on top of a phase gate, firing at a lifeform and phasing out at the last second to avoid death, jumping in a pit or going into the hive to return to MS instantly, why not add another potential tactic for marines to use?

I see no reason why suicide can't be reduced by 1/3 to 5.0 seconds, or even 3.0 seconds. 15.0 is excessive, imo.

Kerostasis
04-08-2008, 06:43 PM
Alright, in deference to Agamemnon, here's a preemptive breakdown of my view on the strategic uses of /kill

I can think of four general uses for the command. If I'm missing one, feel free to point it out.
(1) -- Denying RFK to the enemy in a fight where you expect to die
I consider this nothing less than abusive, as well as counter to the ability of your teammates to try and back you up in a fight -- even if you couldn't win the fight alone, your presence might have been the deciding factor in a team victory, and now you're dead. I don't think we should be promoting this with a reduced /kill timer. By contrast, if you can manage to finish yourself off with your last hand-grenade while the aliens are chewing on you, at least you went out fighting -- props to you.

(2) -- Entering the spawn queue as a fast transport back to base
I don't have a particular problem with this. It changes strategic options somewhat, but it's an open question which set of strategic options is preferable -- I could live either with or without this option.

(3) -- Removing yourself from a stuck-point when /stuck is insufficient.
Suicide is definately required here, but since your current tactical value is nil anyway, it doesn't seem terribly important exactly how long you have to wait to get out. Yeah, it sucks to wait 15 seconds to suicide, but it was gonna suck to wait 3 seconds to suicide too, since what you really wanted was to not get stuck at all. The small benefit gained here from a lower timer doesn't seem enough to outweigh losses in other categories.

(4) -- Killing yourself while near base as a way to refill your health/armor//remove parasites.
This option just seems stupid to me, and while it represents a very questionable advantage to your team, its still not something I think we should be promoting.

Therefore, overall I'm in favor of the higher /kill time. Also, I disagree with almost everything Alakad said.

Lt.Asher
04-08-2008, 07:44 PM
So.... before I weigh in more on this I should ask a painful question.

Are we talking about the asploding abilities that do damage and anger me to no end? Or are we talking about the command inside of the HL console that just puts a bullet to the brainpan and goes squish?

I'm all for asploding aliens (even if they enrage me) and their great gooey substance all over the place, but if we're talking about players killing themselves via a command line... well i don't support that. I'd suggest the CLI suicide be taken out all together, but I know how twitchy the HL engine can be and people can get stuck in odd places.

zibalatz
04-09-2008, 01:44 AM
Aga, your request for standards makes perfect sense- I was in fact assuming everyone was aware of the Primer's realism requirement. To me, the uses of /kill that I deemed "exploitative" are anything outside of the "getting out of being stuck" usage.

Here's another way of thinking of it. We don't allow people to return to the readyroom except for switching to even up teams. If someone used F4 to deny RFK and/or avoid being killed by an enemy, re-enter the spawn queue, or to heal oneself (respawn at full), all of these uses are clearly frowned upon and considered a rule violation. If the /kill counter is reduced and people start using /kill for the exact same purposes, in my opinion this is an essentially identical rule violation.

The justification or thinking behind this being illegal is that it is totally unrealistic and takes you out of the game's own reality system in order to achieve an end. Whether it's achieved by F4ing out into the readyroom or by near-instakilling oneself, I consider these to be outside of the game's logical reality scope and therefore "exploits".

This is before we even look into the "realism" of said actions. I'm just talking about the game's system. Of course if we consider the "realism" of said actions, although it may make sense to "swallow a 3-second suicide pill" when one is in combat and doomed to death, none of the other options make sense when there is no respawn in real life.

Also, one may argue that one can always jump into a pit and so on in order to achieve the same end. I would argue that this is equally exploitative but very difficult to admin so we let it pass. Considering how often it happens versus how much of a gain is achieved, I don't think it's anything worth worrying about.

zibalatz
04-09-2008, 01:45 AM
Oh yeah, Lt. Asher, we're talking about the timed CLI suicide, not the alien skulk ability to blow up in your face. Over. And over. And again.

Wyzcrak
04-09-2008, 02:26 AM
Good discussion, all.