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ForGlory&Pain
04-28-2010, 11:39 PM
someone fill in the name of the mission:

Bugs: Opfor respawn is messed up. have to mash escape to spawn, and even that is bugged.
a lot of vehicles on the side of the road (trucks in particular)


good: neat concept. look forward to it fixed

cctoide
04-29-2010, 12:00 AM
I think I have most of the bugs down, except for the randomly exploding insurgents. Insurgent respawn is definitely fixed for next version, though.

Please let me know what you think about mission balance, as I doubt this will be played for long if there's constant fighting about what's "right" and what isn't. On the one hand making it too strict makes BLUFOR angry that they're going to get blown up no matter what, while making it lax makes the insurgents annoyed that they don't know where they're going and can't set up ambushes.

For reference, the mission is TvT21 RunPMC, and it's on Chernarus.

ForGlory&Pain
04-29-2010, 01:17 AM
messed up a note. meant to say some of the trucks I couldnt enter and use as opfor. When a bike hits something it gets disabled, but shows no visible damage, nor do you take any health damage.

tyrspawn
04-29-2010, 01:30 AM
I thought this mission was absurdly fun - we played it like 10 times in a row. Moar.

Jack Bauer
04-29-2010, 01:35 AM
i feel that this was a blast. i also feel that if someway that you allow the bluefor the flexibilty to go off the "track" by only so far. but i feel that the multiple amount of teleports and stratagy allows for the stringent rules.

there are potentially 8 spots to be ambushed. the three times before we (insurgents) tried and attacked you at everyone and had won 2 out of the three rounds. the fact we tried at one location shows that changes that could happen. if you allow blue for any route its VERY hard to set stuff up.

i feel the limited ammo for the insurgence is nice b/c it allows us to use all at one point or spread it out. i dont know about blue since i never played it. will post more when i get a chance

cctoide
04-29-2010, 08:10 AM
Alright, posting this now since yesterday it was late o'clock when I finally got off the server. This is what I wrote down as we played yesterday. If there's anything you experienced and don't see on this list, please bring it up.

Bugs to fix:
- Insurgent respawn
- Due to the way the out-of-bounds triggers work, insurgents may be killed if they're inside a trigger when BLUFOR activates it. Fix so it only kills BLUFOR.
- Someone said they couldn't pick up weapons as insurgent, but I couldn't reproduce this when playing as one
- Some insurgent trucks are locked
- Telefragging when people use the "flagporters" in quick succession. Maybe add a random horizontal value when teleporting, though it'll have to avoid teleporting people into the ground, which would be even worse.

Complaints/suggestions
- Not enough ammo in the Humvee guns to last the entire run
- BLUFOR can "win" with 1/10 or similar scores, since currently the insurgent win condition is destroying all BLU vehicles (see below)
- No LAV commander slot
- Give the PMC HK416/G36s (for the tactilol factor)
- Maybe add an object at the PMC base and BLUFOR's island "respawn" so BLU JIPs can enter the spec script, and respawns can re-enter it if they accidentally escape out
- Maybe change the PMC convoy. I really don't know what that would be here; more armor?

The "winning with 1/10" thing: I usually don't care who wins a TvT as long as fun stuff happens, but I would also like to make the people who do care happy. The scoring system isn't that complex, but I can make it smarter if people want. Currently the insurgents win if all PMC vehicles are destroyed. The problem here is that when BLUFOR starts out with less guys they're inclined to leave vehicles behind (like we did the first round, leaving the MTVRs at base), and this means they're starting off with a handicap if it's made so they lose below a certain score. I could make it so instead of being "x out of 10" it's "x out of (10 minus the score for whatever you left at base)", I suppose.

Possible gameplay changes
- Show BLUFOR (and insurgents) the out-of-bounds area?

- Give the insurgents only two or three satchels, make them have to save them up for the thought-out ambushes instead of everyone carrying one. Instead, give them a decent amount of claymores they can use to scare BLUFOR and possible damage thin-skinned vehicles. Also give them more RPGs... though getting killed by those may feel almost as random as death by satchel.

- Remove all weapons and ammo from insurgents upon respawn so they only have what's in the crates (otherwise, free satchels from default weapons)

- Add a helicopter to the PMC side so it can scout ahead and relay what it sees to the convoy leader. I had actually considered this when making the mission, but I wanted to keep the slots down due to the population we've had lately. Right now it might be a little stacked towards BLUFOR due to the ability to go offroad, so a chopper might be too much. Also, it makes insurgent roadblocks (even more) hopeless.

- Reduce the amount of "ambient" vehicles by the roadside? They were intended to keep the BLUFOR on edge, just like the shepherds/cowboys, but I kind of placed them haphazardly. On the one hand if there's none by the road then whenever there is one it's obvious what's going on, on the other hand if BLUFOR are forced to stick to the road, every single parked car is a gamble they can't avoid...

- Keep the out-of-bounds areas as they are, but give the insurgent leader a certain amount of "defense points"/"money" they can use in the first few minutes of the round to "buy" things like minefields at certain off-road areas. This will take quite a bit of scripting, but I think it's doable. Makes going offroad for the BLUFOR a not entirely risk-free proposition. Limiting it to the first 3-5 minutes means they can't spawn a bunch of AT mines right in front of the convoy. Would require a lot of bug testing. Also, in ArmA2, unlike A1, I think vehicles inheriting from the Car class don't set off the BI AT mines, only armored vehicles...

So... yeah. Opinions are welcome, on the above points and whatever else you thought of during the mission. I think most people liked it as we played it yesterday, but I noticed things were starting to get a bit heated after the third round. I really hope I can make this so that it doesn't become one of these missions where after a few weeks everyone has had at least one bad experience with it, so two-thirds of the server population at any given time never wants to play it. That would really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_DMC) suck.

edit: I still want to know who I ran over in the MTVR in that last game

Sc[ + ]pe
04-29-2010, 02:49 PM
In my mind, BLUFOR's objective isn't (or shouldn't be) to avoid possible ambush points: rather, it should be to handle and deal with any ambushes in the best way possible. It's not proving how much of a badass you are, or how tactical your plan is, when you game the mission by driving off-road the entire time.

ForGlory&Pain
04-29-2010, 03:07 PM
the layout and setup encourages a "race" mentality, rather than a "patrol" one. I think if it can get closer to a training sim where bluefor winning is actually rather rare unless well organised would go far to making it a mission with longevity on the server. Staying on the road is one part, but limiting how many goes opfor has at getting the ambush right is another.

i don't think people would mind if bluefor was the known underdog.

Dredge
04-29-2010, 03:57 PM
i don't think people would mind if bluefor was the known underdog.

imho, thats when some of the best leadership comes out. When you know the chips are stacked against you and you want so badly to win just to prove to yourself and others it can be done. Thats how I feel on those type of missions and it drives me to be one step ahead.

cctoide
04-29-2010, 04:35 PM
I think you raise a good point about it being a race, ForGlory&Pain. The whole concept of the mission just popped into my head a few days ago as I was doing something else, so it's not like I really thought it out. This was supposed to be a one-off mission, but now that you mention I may make another one where a PMC team runs a standard patrol instead, with more or less the same setup for the insurgents. Still, I don't see how that would improve the "following the roads" problem, as having several objectives to complete in no particular order would if anything make the BLUFOR even more likely to go offroad. Stuff like having to wait a few minutes in towns while talking to a contact could give them opportunities to strike, but they would still need a good dose of clairvoyance. I really don't see how the problem with going offroad problem can be "fixed" without it annoying one side or the other unless there was a map specifically made for it - something like Baghdad would be perfect. Maybe the big city map that's coming in AH.

For the current mission, there's also the possibility of taking out the explosives aspect and making the insurgents use bullets. Maybe make them have just a few claymores and RPGs, and they would have to rely on stopping the convoy and using massed small arms fire to take out the Humvees while the heavy stuff has to be saved for the LAV. This hopefully means that I can force BLUFOR to follow the road more closely without the random, unavoidable deaths that come from roadside bombs.

Yeah, I can't really tell which of these options is best. In the end I might end up making several missions within this general theme. I just want to avoid turning this into a knockoff of Storm Chaser, though, as that mission is already great at what it does.

edit: also, another possible change would be, instead of BLUFOR not respawning, have them respawn in the next city on the convoy's route, so that after a while everyone has to cram into fewer and fewer vehicles if they're doing badly.

ForGlory&Pain
04-29-2010, 04:59 PM
and then jog alongside lol

tyrspawn
04-30-2010, 12:46 AM
pe;1492406']In my mind, BLUFOR's objective isn't (or shouldn't be) to avoid possible ambush points: rather, it should be to handle and deal with any ambushes in the best way possible. It's not proving how much of a badass you are, or how tactical your plan is, when you game the mission by driving off-road the entire time.

I deeply disagree with this - which is why we lost so horribly when you commanded. The premise of the mission is that YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO BE AMBUSHED. The best strategy for this mission is to constantly confuse the opfor, which is what I did. 200-300 meters off the road for a few minutes, back on the road, 200-300 meters off road on the other side of the road. Driving around obvious kill zones rather than going through them. There are some spots on the route which you will lose the entire convoy if you follow the route, unless the opfor is retarded. Avoiding obvious ambushes is a sound strategy, at the expense of speed.

Even while doing this, we still lost half of our vehicles, and we barely won (6/10). The opfor have plentiful options for contingency plans.

I think sound opfor strategy involves more aggressive - there were several times we played where one extremely bold player charged the convoy and blow himself off or cut off and isolated a lone vehicle, then killed it. An effective strategy might be to mobilize the entire opfor team and charge with VBEIDs, having 1-2 players as observers.

Sc[ + ]pe
05-01-2010, 02:20 AM
Never did I lead this mission, and never did I "horribly" lose. Besides, you missed my point, Krause: although avoiding potential killzones makes sense from an I've-played-this-before-and-we-need-to-avoid-the-OPFOR perspective, but I seriously disagree with this strategy being in-line with the aim of the mission. In fact, after one such playthrough an admin was extremely specific in saying that this kind of play was extremely discouraged.

ThePieSpy
05-01-2010, 02:49 AM
How is avoiding kill zones not a valid gameplay option? The way cctoide has the mission set up you cant just go kilometers away from the marked route. Taking an off-road path means your going to be moving slower, plus you kick up a dust cloud visible from hundreds of meters away. If BLUFOR is restricted to only the road until they get attacked, then OPFOR has an awfully easy task of placing a bunch of satchels along the road any sitting back to wait for the convoy to roll through for the slaughter. The fact that half our convoy got smoked using our strategy should be proof enough that its not cheating.

As far as suggestions, making the convoy go through the major cities along the coast is a possible option that allows the OPFOR to block certain routes while the BLUFOR has more than one routes without going offroad.

Another alternative is have small 2-4 man insurgent teams spawn in different (preferably random) places along the route with no respawn/magic teleport. Each team could consist of an RPG gunner, machinegunner, demolitions with maybe 1 satchel and 4 claymores, and a leader. No respawn and limited satchels means things like carbombs other suicide tactics will actually have a negative effect on the OPFOR's later effectiveness should their attack fail.

tyrspawn
05-01-2010, 03:06 AM
pe;1493243']Never did I lead this mission, and never did I "horribly" lose. Besides, you missed my point, Krause: although avoiding potential killzones makes sense from an I've-played-this-before-and-we-need-to-avoid-the-OPFOR perspective, but I seriously disagree with this strategy being in-line with the aim of the mission. In fact, after one such playthrough an admin was extremely specific in saying that this kind of play was extremely discouraged.

You backseat commanded when Charles Darwin was commanding and you effectively took over as leader.

It says in the briefing that you are expected to be attacked - so your claim that using foreknowledge to "meta"game the system is a fallacy. The admin you are referring to was aggravated by blufor's effective strategy, which was neither outside the spirit of the mission or the TG SOPs.

Sc[ + ]pe
05-01-2010, 03:38 AM
My point is thus: I believe the mission would be more fun for both parties if convoy vehicles were not allowed outside 200 meters of their convoy route. Krause, I have no idea what I've done to get on your bad side, but I'd appreciate you cutting out the condescending attitude.

cctoide
05-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Alright, okay, in an effort to avoid this kind of conflict, the version of the mission that I submitted yesterday allows you to set out-of-bounds checking to "strict" or "lax". "Lax" is set by default and is the same area as the first version. "Strict" is much tighter and barely allows 50 meters in some places. Exactly how far you are allowed to go is also shown on the map now.

The insurgent arsenal can also be set to have "more ranged explosives" (default), "more explosive charges", "both" or "neither". The first option gives the insurgents a bunch of RPGs and only one satchel, while the second one gives them a few more satchels and M4 SLAMs. I also moved some insurgent camps away from cities so it takes more of a commitment in terms of walking time if they want to strike there.

Also added an option, off by default, to give the insurgents technicals at some of their camps. Lastly, there's an option, set to high by default, which changes the amount of roadside cars - though I also removed a bunch of trucks and buses for good from most cities. Thanks to new Chernarussian parking regulations, there are less cars to be found right on the verge of the road, making bad parking more suspicious.

As for changing the route and having no respawns, I definitely agree that it'd be interesting, but it wouldn't really be the same mission anymore. Give me a week or two and I'll see what kind of variations on this theme I can come up with.

Related to the above, one thing I think would be interesting is the insurgent team (probably not in this mission) having no explosives at all, since they seem to elicit the most calls of BS, and instead having to rely on confusing or otherwise stopping the convoy to then pelt it with massed small arms fire. It'd probably mean light vehicles only for BLUFOR, but I think it'd be interesting - the only problem is that roadblocks only really work in cities, and we don't have a big enough one right now. Hence my interest in that big city in OA...

tyrspawn
05-01-2010, 11:45 PM
Alright, okay, in an effort to avoid this kind of conflict, the version of the mission that I submitted yesterday allows you to set out-of-bounds checking to "strict" or "lax". "Lax" is set by default and is the same area as the first version. "Strict" is much tighter and barely allows 50 meters in some places. Exactly how far you are allowed to go is also shown on the map now.

The insurgent arsenal can also be set to have "more ranged explosives" (default), "more explosive charges", "both" or "neither". The first option gives the insurgents a bunch of RPGs and only one satchel, while the second one gives them a few more satchels and M4 SLAMs. I also moved some insurgent camps away from cities so it takes more of a commitment in terms of walking time if they want to strike there.

Also added an option, off by default, to give the insurgents technicals at some of their camps. Lastly, there's an option, set to high by default, which changes the amount of roadside cars - though I also removed a bunch of trucks and buses for good from most cities. Thanks to new Chernarussian parking regulations, there are less cars to be found right on the verge of the road, making bad parking more suspicious.

As for changing the route and having no respawns, I definitely agree that it'd be interesting, but it wouldn't really be the same mission anymore. Give me a week or two and I'll see what kind of variations on this theme I can come up with.

Related to the above, one thing I think would be interesting is the insurgent team (probably not in this mission) having no explosives at all, since they seem to elicit the most calls of BS, and instead having to rely on confusing or otherwise stopping the convoy to then pelt it with massed small arms fire. It'd probably mean light vehicles only for BLUFOR, but I think it'd be interesting - the only problem is that roadblocks only really work in cities, and we don't have a big enough one right now. Hence my interest in that big city in OA...

fyi the new version of this mission looks amazing, it went through QA and should be on the server as of this post.

Sc[ + ]pe
05-02-2010, 03:02 AM
Sweet, cc! Now go make us Afrene's Awakening v2 you jerk!