The Official Team-Stacking Theory Thread

[Bommando]

OK, I have been hearing a bit of grumbling lately about team stacking and I want to get impressions from everybody.

An example of a specific situation can be read here. Please see also my response. Note that James was simply observing and not necessarily complaining in his post. I am just citing it as an example of a possible team-stacking myth.

I'd like to get some constructive ideas from people as to what they believe results in team stacking and whether you think it occurs or not and if it happens with any kind of frequency.

I notice that some of the fingers are pointing to the 7th for squadding up and / or playing on the same team. I don't want people to get the impression that we are gaming the game or stacking the teams for the win. I can unequivocally say that the 7th more often than not spread themselves between teams as fairly as possible. We even switch to the losing team between rounds sometimes to see if we can even things up a bit.

From my observations, I cannot pinpoint any specific cause of uneven round scores or beatdowns. People blame pilots, COs, divisions and all sorts of things for a stacked team, but I am yet to be convinced that any one factor is to blame. I rarely see a single side dominate for the whole night. Victories are often one-sided, but this is the nature of the game. Not every game can be close.

Without getting heated, can we impartially suggest what might be the cause of unbalanced games? Is it a myth? Can we fix it?

I'd really like to help work on a solution if people are convinced this is a problem.

[Jusb]

I think the biggest difference is usually the CO situation. If you have one you're usually up big early or if your CO is stronger then there are huge leads and unballanced wins for all the usual reasons:

*better coordination and the knowledge of what it takes to win/bleed a map
*arty vs no arty
*air superiority (huge one for the team w/ a crappy CO)
*scans vs no scans

Lately there have been very few balanced CO battles. Lots of regular TG CO vs random pubbie CO which automatically reallys skews a map. And the no CO at all on one side has been a bigger problem as of late.

[schemer]

I think it is more of a concern if the desired intent is to simply dominate every round by stacking the best players versus the more noble intent of simply trying to keep squads and folks who like to play together on the same side in the name of fun and more coordinated and natural teamwork.

Shouldn't tg let "market forces" take over to cause a balance rather than calling foul and/or letting the government (that is, admins) "force" fairness? I think much admin fiddling here quickly borders too closely with an attitude of "you guy's are too good so we're breaking you up".

[Shiner]

Hmm I rarely choose the side to play on in a map.. and I assume many others don't as well. But given I have been auto assigned to a side, I then will try to play with people I recognize or start my own 7th.Shiner squad if I feel up to a little extra work.

I don't really think we have team stacking as much as variability in leadership. Especially early in the night, before we get the regular SL and CO's on the games can be dominiated by one side that has a decent CO and 3 good SL vs a side that has a green CO and perhaps only 1 regular SL.

[Mateo]

When the game first came out, I'd say we were unskilled, and we all pretty much just logged in, took whichever side we were given, and made the best of it.

About a month later, some clear "stars" were developing: Smoking Tarpan as SL, Bommando as CO, etc. Players now had a decision to make: take what they were given, or try to get on Tarpan's Squad.

The 42nd were revived, since Apophis and company saw that the game lent itself to using squad tactics and execution, and soon, everyone wanted to be in a formal squad.

Now, all these months later, pretty much all the supporting members are in one or more in-house teams.

To a newcomer, I'm sure it looks like team stacking. I'm not so sure. The 7th and the 2nd have some ungodly twitchers, and anyone that is without a squad will get reamed by them. That's part of the reason why I don't play anymore unless the 4-2 is in: I'm not going to get into the grinder without backup. I'd rather play single player than submit to that.

On the other hand, as part of one of those teams, I wouldn't like in-house squads to be banned, since it puts an entirely new spin on the game.

Maybe some middle ground is possible. For example, on passworded nights, go ahead and squad up, feel free. On regular nights, maybe all inhouse teams can make an effort not to fill up their squads, and expose what they do to more players.

It's pretty disappointing to see there are 3 pub squads flailing about padding the 7th, 2nds, and MIPs stats.

[TG_Bubba]

Now this is only my opinion. When I get on I myself have/had a tendency to look and see who is playing and join up with a squad of people I know. Being from the 7th I have many members that I kike to work with. The team play that they and and a some of us non 7th have IMO give for an intense game. That being said, I have been on squads that are alot of newbies. I try and get on with them to help teach the TG way. I have heard comments from them as well as regular members that "oh no, it's the 7th attacking or defending". To some I guess it does seem like the teams are stacked with 7th.To the newbies I try and explain to them that we have squads here at TG that are formed to learn tactics and team play and that most will squad up to teach others the game. I have to admit that at one time I would find out who was going to what side and ask for an invite into a LOCKED squad. Not all but some 7th as well as the smaller groups lock up so as to get all there members in. I understand the concept of train together/play together. So when people are on or coming onto the server they see a couple of squads with 7th folks. The 7th being the largest sticks out more then the smaller squads, maybe that is what people see and consider team stacking. In our squad the 2nd as well as some in the 7th and other squads, we make it a point to have a couple of us in and as many other players with us to offer guidance. All that being said, I think it boils down to numbers, out of all the squads, the 7th fields the most.(Disclaimer: This too is not to get into a heated debate.)

[Gixxer_USMC]

I really do not think that there is "INTENT" to "STACK" a side or someone that says .." Hey, let's get all the 7TH on one side and OBLITERATE the pubbies "

I feel it is merely the fact that certian squads like to play with certain squads.
Yes, I like to play on the side of other 7th members. I joined TG to become part of a "SERIOUS" community that puts forth the effort to TACTICS and not just a bunch of LOONIES running around blasting each other with no regard to the game other than to get more "KILLS".

If it gets to a point where admins are splitting team members up just to "EVEN-UP" the sides than what good is it to have squads like the 7th and the 2nd and the 42nd.

Yes, the 7th has the most members so it would "SEEM" that the fingers are being pointed toward us .... so what do you do .... tell someone .. "hey, Gixxer ... you can't play with the other 7th memebrs because the sides are to uneven .. please go to the other side "
Now, I definitely know that i am not the best player here ... In fact, I am FAAAARR from it .. but I am just usung myself as an example .... But what good would it be for me to belong to the 7th if I can not play on the same side ?

I agree with JusB .. lately some side hasn't had a CO or some PUBBIE jumps in the seat to see what he can do which is all fair and good .. more power to him ....

For example ... Operation Cleansweep last night .... I was on the US side that got OBLITERATED .... we couldn't do ANYTHING right .... there wer several very good players on our side ... But we got our a** whooped ....

Take your a** whooping like a man ... and carry on .....

Enough with my ranting ...

Are the teams intentionally stacked ... no
Should players who want to play on the same side as their fellow Squaddies be broken up to even up the game ... Hell, no .... and I hope I never see that day come.

[Trooper]

i personally dont look at it as stacking...with as much talent we have on our servers the games could go either way. I for one ussually say "o great the 7th or 42nd is defending or attacking" just becuase i know those squads are well dug in and its gonna be a blood bath...either way i dont look at each side and say one is better off.....i do pick sides just becuase i like the M24 over any other gun.

its been 4 months since the release and we have all stepped up our games and skills since its been let out. Maybe the sides are stacked...just depends on what side you are on, of coarse the other side is going to be stacked when u are loosing....

[Tac-D]

It is never my intent to stack a team. In fact, I normally join the losing team, all else being equal.

I do, however, have game buddies that I enjoy playing with, and make an effort to squad with, when I can.

I've been on the wrong end of a team stack many times, so I understand the frustration, but I have never seen an all TG v. pubbie stack in my (too) many hours of play here.

Last night, I came in to a game halfway towards a 400-0 win, and Bom asked for volunteers to swap next round. I did, with a few others, and we won the map. The funny thing was when someone piped up on TS that we were stacking the OTHER team now. No pleasing some people I guess.

That being said, I've had nights where I lost 4 maps in a row, and nights where I won 4 maps in a row, but usually it falls somewhere in the middle.

[jaymind]

I've heard these grumblings during the past week, and while I know that nobody is stacking teams, I also know that in the end it doesn't matter what we are doing. If the perception is out there that we are stacking, regardless of if we are doing so or not, it's the perception that we need to fight.

I agree with Bom, there are many reasons for a map to go one way or another, and some people look for excuses instead of not worrying about it and having fun. Some are just getting to caught up in winning these maps; heck I've learned more by getting my butt whooped than I have any other way. And it doesn't decrease my fun if we lose if I'm part of a good squad.

But, we then get back to battling perception. So, if you happen to see one side consistently losing have some experienced players switch teams. It has the added benefit of getting to play with some really good players you may not normally get to play with.

Also, if you notice your team consistently without a CO, please step up. In the end it doesn't matter if your a good CO or not, having a CO is better than not having a CO. And the experience you gain can only help.

[Preston85]

Basically what Jusb said but a few other factors:

Map balance - is it easier for 1 side to take major flags and hold them?
UCBs - Does 1 side have no UCB so have to divert troops to defend that?
CO - Not just hitting arty on cencentrated enemy but uses it to assist squads in defending and capturing flags. Providing recon for squads, letting them know what is comming or ahead.
Armour/Air units - Does one team have superior numbers? If so the enemy has to counter with more AT allowing the anti-infantry units to have a advantage.
Air superiority - Maps with bombers this is the biggest factor on, it can clear a flag of a squad plus its armour, it can stop attacks before they reach a flag.
SL's - Manages there squad well, uses good movement and positioning to give there squad the best chance of sucess, even if they are pubies.

So it might look like the ground forces are just better alround (stacked) but there different factors of importance.
1. Air superiority
2. Map balance.
3. CO knowledge + communication. Less than map balance as the CO can only do as much as the map allows.
4. SL's and armour. At the same level imho as armour can make the difference between to even SL's who are getting the best from there team, but if armour is used against a good squad leader with no support the good SL will win.

[birdie_in_Texas]

i was listening to them cry/bitch/whine about it all weekend...

here it is....you get people that play together and get good at things..there is a finitie amount of maps, and a winning strategy makes people happy..so they gravitate to their pals, buddies, squadmates because they are assured of a "good" game..

then you hear the whining and crying of people that are not lucky enough to get on that team...

this goes on in any game...no matter what...you are always gonna have sore losers..

i was on the receiveing end of that OBLITERATION last night on 2 maps in a row...then finally, Bommando and Beatnik decided to come over and help us out..!

bottom line..|TG| is just bad ass...i am probably the suckiest player in |TG| and even i SL better than a LOT of the pubbies..so if i can thrash ont hem, imagine what they feel up against Beatnik, Tac-D, Bommando, etc...!


what can you do other than try to keep things fair..and i think we do that as often as we (as in |TG|) can...it is all about fun and co-operation...

if you think teams are way stacked (like everyone was crying about last night on Karkand and Oman), then hop on TS and say.."Look guys...this seems a "little" unfair...what do you think?"

i bet you get a lot nicer response and a solution to the "problem" which really isn't a problem, it is just that "we" are so bad ass...!


there..rambling off..

[AntiVisual]

Eh I am better than everyone else, so it doesn't really matter to me what side I am on.

[Pokerface]

The fact that the game carries over the teams from one round to the next is an issue. In my head, THE issue. It's one thing for teams to get stacked for one round, but built into the game is a mechanism for persisting this imbalance.

Team 1 wins, Team 2's frustrated people leave; new people come in and fill team 2, the cycle continues.

[Lucky Shot]

I don't feel we lost Karkand due to a poor amount of talent. We lost it due to execution and lack of creativity. We had 7th guys on our team, 1stMIP and good guys up and down. Flat out though, apart from the suburbs which was captured and held all game long, we couldn't capture a flag and couldn't release ourselves from pinning fire by the opposition. There was poor communication and coordination between squads.

The reason we won Daqing was entirely due to solid coordination between the squads and great communication. Other squads knew what was going on and when, we had air superiority and a commander who coordinated and had vision.

I had the same team minus 1 or 2 guys from Karkand to Daqing. I lost an MIP guy and picked up a 7th guy. I also had good response from whoever the floating 6th guy was(they would get booted throughout the round for SM's).

I don't see Teamstacking. If you get your butt handed to you, it's time to stop repeating that and do something different. PW night, my squads absolutely were slaughtered. I learned a couple things and my squads did much better the following night. I can't pull the victim card as I know there are different things I can try to get different results.

Lucky Shot