American abuse of imprisoned Iraqis.

[CingularDuality]

http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D82870K82.html

I hope these guys get locked up for a long, long time... I'm once again disheartened to see the enlisted guys getting court-martialed while the officers merely face "disciplinary action". The soldiers can only be expected to act in a manner consistant with their leadership. I wish the officers were forced to conduct an unarmed recon mission into the middle of Fallujah. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh. I'd be satisfied seeing them thrown in the brig for the rest of their lives...

On the other hand, I could be falling victim to the sensationalism of the press:

Methods often reported, it said, included prolonged sleep deprivation, beatings, exposure to loud music and prolonged periods of being covered by a hood.

These are the things that Amnesty International is whining about... With the exception of the beatings, I think these all sound like viable techniques for interrogation. None of them cause injury (depends on how loud the music is...) and they all can be very effective.

Regardless, anytime foreigners think that Americans will torture them, it endangers our soldiers' lives. We're the good guys. We don't do that crap. If we don't set the example, who will?

[USN_Squid]

US general suspended over abuse

[Benny_]

Thread here

One of the valid points I think was that they should server their sentence in an Iraqi jail, it would show the locals that they mean business.

[Emanon]

What we do cant be anything close to what Sadam did.

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by Emanon

What we do cant be anything close to what Sadam did.

Except we can lose the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraq now that these photos are being played over and over on arabic media outlets... Wouldn't that be a shame if everything we've done in Iraq so far was for nothing? Would your attitude change if a new regime even worse than Saddam's were put in place as a result of outrage over this? Saddam wasn't as bad as it could get. What if Saddam had been religious(politically, not personally)?

Once again, we're the good guys. We don't do that crap.

We should imprison every single soldier that was involved in this, regardless of rank. Benny's idea of doing it in an Iraqi prison is an excellent idea, as well...

[asch]

Originally Posted by Emanon

What we do cant be anything close to what Sadam did.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's right. I haven't been in the military so my opinion may not hold as much water as some others... but to me both the soldiers and officers should be held accountable and face similar sentences (if found guilty). There isn't any excuse, especially the "I wasn't given any info or rules...blah" crap. Knowing how to treat another human being (enemy or not) isn't too difficult to figure out.

I'm disappointed in these people and I expect nothing but the best out of armed forces. I still hold high regard for these people who put their life on the line so I can sit at home and play battlefield.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Except we can lose the hearts and minds of the majority of Iraq now that these photos are being played over and over on arabic media outlets...

Um, we don't have their hearts or minds. These people only understand strength and brutality. I don't think they are ready to join civilization.

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Wouldn't that be a shame if everything we've done in Iraq so far was for nothing?

/sarcasm ?

[Emanon]

Things in Iraq are not half as bad as our great media portrays it. A coworker's son is a blackhawk pilot and he says that everyone is nice and they are happy that we did this for them.

Thing is these kinds of stories dont sell.

[Wyzcrak]

How people envision our success and purpose in Iraq so often has very little to do with Iraq, but moreso to do with the experiences in their lives leading up to our activity in Iraq. There is evidence in Iraq sufficient to support just about any pre-conceived perception of it that a person is unquestioningly loyal to.

[wwwMEMORYnet]

We might not have their hearts and minds but not all of them over there are fighting us. If this is marketed right (remember them bringing in marketing professionals at the begining of the war and saying this is a new kind of battle) against us then it could turn the majority of the Islamic people against us. And that can only be bad.

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by Tempus

Um, we don't have their hearts or minds. These people only understand strength and brutality. I don't think they are ready to join civilization.

Another victim of the American media's attempts to dumb down this great nation?

Or just good ol' fashioned prejudice?

[luna]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Another victim of the American media's attempts to dumb down this great nation?

Or just good ol' fashioned prejudice?

I vote for the latter.

[DudeMan]

i think when looking at the photographic evidence that and i am very sorry to say this, but the pictures did show some nasty things right?

well here is a balance brought to me through talking with some people on team speak, but are these scenes of sadistic torture or are they scenes of American troops who have been a little screwed up about the amount of dead americans this month and take it out on the iraqis they have. ok you may say but that is still wrong however can you put your hand on your heart and say you will fight a war, and people die all around you, and you come face to face with the soldier personified as the entity that has done this. can you put your hand on your heart and say i would not kill this man.

i could not, at all i could not SAY this however when regular joe civillian looks at this he sees brutality when frontline troops who face car bombs and death everyday they do not see it as bad as we do.

and i think that this is a key eliment. when your life is in danger 24 hrs a day 7 days a week perspectives suffer and how much can we begoin to unload our problems with the war and our political crisis of the war on these people.

also new allegations against British troops are being called into question for staging the event and that no troop actuially committed this act. i dont know if i believe this and i will not condone the acts =that the photograps portray. but all i am saying is before these soldiers are used as scape goats for all of the problems that all the politicains have had with the war.

so where does the truth lie.

sadistic troops beilive that every arab is a militant muslim who needs beatings?

american troops are dying because of these people, we are going to have fun with them and make them scared like us?

staged by liberals or anti war demonstrators or factions inside iraq to destroy hearts and minds. ?

to be honest i believe the truth lies in the second of those questions. i will say no i dont condone it but if i was in that situation i could not say at all that i would not give the next iraqis soldier i see a good pasting. i think i would be hard pressed not to put a bullet in his head. and i dont think that any joe civillian is qualified to try these people.

and to all who complain that it is the military police dealing with this. do we forget that a trial by jury is a trial by ones peers. (at least in UK law) therefore if you can find a bunch of jurers who are not personally involved but have been fighting on the frontline and are from the same kind of back ground as the accused. then ill be all for it. but it would be unfair to expect a regular citizen to concieve the kind of preassure our troops are under, and then concieve an apropriate punishment.

however saying that a courtmarshal is the best idea is quite a bad thing to suggest. it seems to be a loose loose situation anyway you look at this these guys are going to be scape goats for a political mess. courtmarshals are not the most reliable sources of fair tials..

anyway hate to sit on the fence but i can see what the people were doing are these just highschool pranks that have gone too far and have been blown up... or are they really widespread views of treatment of iraqis prsioners?

if you come away from this post with one question let it be.

can you say as god or if like me an athiest in your own honour that you could resist from beating the crap our of a prisoner if he had shot your brother. because people who fight together will love each other like a brother. so if you catch a guy personified as the guy who killed your brother could you resis.

i can say i would not. i would beat them at the least.

but i dont condone violence because i am such a civillian and dont have the perspective and therfore cant judge these people.

[Tempus]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Another victim of the American media's attempts to dumb down this great nation?

Or just good ol' fashioned prejudice?

Or perhaps the truth.

The fact is, the Iraqis have been fighting someone or another for some reason or another for decades. They had an oppressive ruler that supposedly everyone hated. They get one big break, having Americans go over there and die for their freedom, and all they do is resist. They kill their liberators and celebrate their deaths. They spit in the face of Americans who would rather be home with their families instead of being in some godforsaken desert that will not in their lifetimes be anything but a warzone.

And you have something good to say about that?? You are the delusion one, I'm afraid.

[luna]

As a person who is NOT in the military (so take this with a grain of salt) I can say that to the best of my knowledge I would not only be able to resist being inhumane and cruel, but I would consider it my job to do so, as a representative of the coalition. I have no idea what it is like to be in their shoes, and I understand (rather I don't, because I'm not a soldier) the pressure they are under. If these allegations are in fact true, I would still be hard pressed to excuse this behavior, regardless of the stress they are under. I'm sorry, but I find it absolutely inexcusable.

If we can excuse this behavior in our own troops, what right do we have to invade a country that permitted this? Wasn't the main reason we liberated Iraq to put an end to the torture and abuse of its citizens?

I want to see if this is accurate before I cast judgement, though.