The recent map changes that could be/should be permanent

[BHack]

I realize everything has been done on a temporary basis, which the majority of changes should be. However, I think some of the changes genuinely make the game more fun and should be left in.

My suggestions:
- Leave the blackhawk nerf. But un-nerf it slightly so as to make it at least useful in some situations.
-Leave choppers out of sharqi, nuff said.
-Leave tanks in zatar, but limit them to 5 per team. I could see there being a TANK squad formed for this map similar to aircraft squads.


Also, Dalian was somewhat interesting with the lack of air. Although I felt the map could still use at least one fighter jet and one attack chopper per team.

what say you?

[icky]

Thanks for the suggestions Bhack. My replies:

Originally Posted by Bhack

My suggestions:
- Leave the blackhawk nerf. But un-nerf it slightly so as to make it at least useful in some situations.

It is being left in. Is there some reason why the BH should be more powerful than the OPFOR transport choppers?

Originally Posted by Bhack

-Leave choppers out of sharqi, nuff said.

Done and done. Believe it or not, someone complained about not having a chopper on Sharqi last night.

Originally Posted by Bhack

-Leave tanks in zatar, but limit them to 5 per team. I could see there being a TANK squad formed for this map similar to aircraft squads.

There are problems with this:
1. With jets and attack helos in, more tanks just makes more easy targets. If one side has dominant air, they will also have dominant armor.
2. Unless we spawn the tanks at a UCB, one team can steal control of all of them, so the USMC tank spawn would have to be moved all the way back to the beach.

Originally Posted by Bhack

Also, Dalian was somewhat interesting with the lack of air. Although I felt the map could still use at least one fighter jet and one attack chopper per team.

Dalian will be back in some variation, but for now it is back to stock.

[BHack]

Originally Posted by icky

Thanks for the suggestions Bhack. My replies:


It is being left in. Is there some reason why the BH should be more powerful than the OPFOR transport choppers?

Done and done. Believe it or not, someone complained about not having a chopper on Sharqi last night.

There are problems with this:
1. With jets and attack helos in, more tanks just makes more easy targets. If one side has dominant air, they will also have dominant armor.
2. Unless we spawn the tanks at a UCB, one team can steal control of all of them, so the USMC tank spawn would have to be moved all the way back to the beach.

Dalian will be back in some variation, but for now it is back to stock.

You couldn't lock zatar at the 32 player version and leave the tank spawns where they are? Forcing players to drive t heir tanks all the way back to the frontlines is a good idea, I believe.

The air situation is a sticky one. Possibly leave the attack helo out of that map for good? Jet's aren't quite as deadly at taking out armor and hopefully equal numbers of them per team will keep things somewhat even.

As for the blackhawk nerf, how did you equalize it with the 50 cal on the other helos? Just curious since the rate of fire and way the guns work are so completely different. I sort of think they should be equalized, but first the other transport helos guns be beefed up a tad. Nothing should be nearly as deadly as a stock blackhawk, but boosting the rate of fire of the other helo's fiddy, while lowering the damage output of the stock blackhawk, would be a good compromise.

I say this because, as a squad leader, a smart tactic is to have me fly the helo, then tell everyone but the left gunner to hop out and attempt to take the flag. Meanwhile, the gunner and I fly circles around the flag attempting to provide cover. This allows the 4 guys attacking below to spawn back in the helo and keep up the assault. Fun and fair, except for the fact that its too easy for my gunner to annihilate anything instantly with the stock minigun.

[thebleakaffinity]

Am I the only person that thinks the Blackhawk is fine as is? Yes, it's more powerful than the other transport helos, but there are other vehicles where Chinese and MEC have the advantage (the US buggy is basically useless as a defensive vehicle). And honestly, they're not that hard to take down. Two .50cals and a couple AT kits firing at it should take it down pretty quickly.

[SgtDuke]

Originally Posted by icky

Is there some reason why the BH should be more powerful than the OPFOR transport choppers?

Maybe they originally made the Black Hawk more powerful, and it should remain slightly more powerful, than the OpFor transport choppers because OpFor has more effective jets? I personally prefer the Chinese jets to any of the others and possibly the MiG-29 to either the F-35B or F-18.

[BHack]

Originally Posted by thebleakaffinity

Am I the only person that thinks the Blackhawk is fine as is? Yes, it's more powerful than the other transport helos, but there are other vehicles where Chinese and MEC have the advantage (the US buggy is basically useless as a defensive vehicle). And honestly, they're not that hard to take down. Two .50cals and a couple AT kits firing at it should take it down pretty quickly.

True, and the J10's are the best Jets. But they overcompensated with the power of the blackhawk, which is obvious when there are none of those fancy jets on the map to take them out.

[icky]

Originally Posted by Bhack

As for the blackhawk nerf, how did you equalize it with the 50 cal on the other helos? Just curious since the rate of fire and way the guns work are so completely different. I sort of think they should be equalized, but first the other transport helos guns be beefed up a tad. Nothing should be nearly as deadly as a stock blackhawk, but boosting the rate of fire of the other helo's fiddy, while lowering the damage output of the stock blackhawk, would be a good compromise.

The BH gun, the M134, had twice the firing rate and 3/4 of the damage of the KORD and the Type85. It also had explosion damage added to that so that it was like a 900 RPM grenade launcher.

Now, it has twice the firing rate and half the damage, and the explosion component has been removed.

What we have done is to turn the BH from a circling platform of death delivery into a troop transportation vehicle like the choppers the other teams have. It can still be very effective at clearing a landing zone, you just need to take a greater risk to use it like that, since you have to be closer and moving more slowly.

[thebleakaffinity]

Let me just add that I think it's great that you've taken the initiative to change these kinds of things, even if there still needs to be some tinkering done. Especially since DICE has been very slow and ineffective thus far with patches and fixes.

[WhiskeySix]

yeah, after flying a few sorties in the nerfed BH, i can say that the guns are pretty much useless... I dropped 4 on the flag and then orbitted w/ a gunner... got one kill on a CP full of opfor and the 4 got wiped out. (It's not that the outcome wasn't plausable, it's that the real-world tactic is now eliminated.) I'd suggest adding a little splash damage - maybe 1 meter or less if possible? It would make it usefull, but not dominant. (As it is, there's no question that the best BH usage is to drop 5 or 6 on the flag and let the air-bus crash without firing a round.)

I also think we need ALL choppers back on Daqing Oilfields - that's probably the best balanced map between air and ground.

For Dalian Plant, I'd say each team should get one attack helo.

For Sharqi and Zatar, no attack helos.

[BHack]

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

yeah, after flying a few sorties in the nerfed BH, i can say that the guns are pretty much useless... I dropped 4 on the flag and then orbitted w/ a gunner... got one kill on a CP full of opfor and the 4 got wiped out. (It's not that the outcome wasn't plausable, it's that the real-world tactic is now eliminated.) I'd suggest adding a little splash damage - maybe 1 meter or less if possible? It would make it usefull, but not dominant. (As it is, there's no question that the best BH usage is to drop 5 or 6 on the flag and let the air-bus crash without firing a round.)

I also think we need ALL choppers back on Daqing Oilfields - that's probably the best balanced map between air and ground.

For Dalian Plant, I'd say each team should get one attack helo.

For Sharqi and Zatar, no attack helos.

Agreed.

People are just going to use the blackhawk to get somewhere and then ditch it and let it blow. Which is what most people do with the air cows the other teams get now.

This is why I argued for an INCREASED effectiveness in the guns on the other helos and then reduce the blackhawk to this new level. Using them as transport choppers is fine, but they do have guns for a reason, they should have some teeth to them.

What about giving the other chopper explosive damage as well? It's difficult to be at all accurate at shooting those guns when your pilot is flying around like a madman.

[wushuhero]

Originally Posted by thebleakaffinity

Am I the only person that thinks the Blackhawk is fine as is? Yes, it's more powerful than the other transport helos, but there are other vehicles where Chinese and MEC have the advantage (the US buggy is basically useless as a defensive vehicle). And honestly, they're not that hard to take down. Two .50cals and a couple AT kits firing at it should take it down pretty quickly.

the blackhawk is awsome the best ever, I wish I had one, then Id Pwn thze newbs blocking the traffic

[Arf]

Originally Posted by icky

It is being left in. Is there some reason why the BH should be more powerful than the OPFOR transport choppers?

I think since the USMC is on the offensive in so many maps the developers thought they needed that extra firepower to route defenders. They obviously don't need THAT much more but I think a slight advantage could be good.

In my opinion adding an explosive component to the OpFor transports would make them effective enough to use. Right now they can't even defend themselves and tend to get left rotting in UCBs. I wouldn't want to see the Blackhawks end up like that because the transports make the game more dynamic.

Originally Posted by Bhack

Leave tanks in Zatar, but limit them to 5 per team. I could see there being a TANK squad formed for this map similar to aircraft squads.

I liked the changes to Zatar, very much. I think we should set the APCs to the same thing and fight the whole map with nothing but heavy vehicles and RIBs. The map would be perfect for that if the TOWs were better placed and AT Mines were more viable.

Originally Posted by Bhack

Also, Dalian was somewhat interesting with the lack of air. Although I felt the map could still use at least one fighter jet and one attack chopper per team.

You'd have to talk to the other pilots but in my opinion the only way an F-35 can keep up with a J-10 is if that J-10 is chasing the other F-35. The F-35s aren't going to win against equal pilots without strong teamwork, take out the second jet and the F-35 is going to get torn to pieces by the J-10.

[Kilrogg]

Apples to apples please... You're comparing BH vs Mec/China chopper to a J10 vs F35. I don't see the link at all, air to air combat has almost no impact on the outcome of a map, it's all about bombing the targets on the ground and all the jets are equal on that. Where the BH is overpowered is on maps like Mashtuur where it has no counterpart and where it's 99% infantry.

BHs on Dalian or any other maps aren't a problem, why? Because those maps have jets, attack helos, AA and most importantly lots of armor for infantry to hide in.

[Arf]

Originally Posted by Kilrogg

Apples to apples please... You're comparing BH vs Mec/China chopper to a J10 vs F35. I don't see the link at all, air to air combat has almost no impact on the outcome of a map, it's all about bombing the targets on the ground and all the jets are equal on that. Where the BH is overpowered is on maps like Mashtuur where it has no counterpart and where it's 99% infantry.

BHs on Dalian or any other maps aren't a problem, why? Because those maps have jets, attack helos, AA and most importantly lots of armor for infantry to hide in.

I don't understand what you're saying.

If the enemy jets shoot down the friendly jets how does that not effect what's getting bombed? I didn't compare the helicopters to the jets.

[FBmantis]

(some of this will be a repeat of previous posts by me)

My main suggestion is to just keep trying variations. Don't ever settle for all or nothing on any map...attempt one removal here....one addition elsewhere, etc. Eventually you'll get a agreed upon solution but in the meantime it helps keep things fresh. As for specific changes:

- Zatar. Unsure...lets keep trying ideas. I think no attack choppers should always be in effect though....I hate atk choppers on wide open maps that have little cover. If your seen your good as dead. Jets?...lets try it with one and then none. I'm learning toward one thinking about it. Tank wars seem natural but there were too many in the first test. Is it possible to limit the number of spawns? Or can you only do one or unlimited at a specific location?

I think 6-8 per side would be ideal but how to accomplish it depends on the previous question. If you can not limit the respawns then I guess the only way to get more tanks is change other vehicles to tanks?(I think icky alluded to this in another thread) I could see the AA and maybe one buggy changed easily to a tank but you couldn't do that too all the initial vehicles...have to have transport.

- Blackhawk guns. I like them nerfed but wouldn't mind them having a little punch to them. Just never bring back the explosive component....thats just silly.

- MEC atk chopper: If you can nerf the blackhawk guns can you tone down the splash damage on this chopper a bit?

- Sharqi and Mashtuur: They are both great now with the chopper changes. Thank you!

- Oman: Do any ground pounders enjoy this map anymore? I mean I would rather play Kubra or Clean Sweep over regular Oman....thats bad. I admit I don't believe I have played this map during the 'fun' days but I played it again stock today so I'll rant a bit.

The atk choppers are the main problem imo. There is basically no cover at all at those beach flags(not to mention the terrain in between) and so the choppers can just circle and rape until a jet comes to save the day(which may not happen). Yes 50 cals and AA exist...but good luck using them against a skilled chopper team. Occasionaly you will down them but usually those placements are knocked out first. Not to mention these placements spawn near the flag which gets bombed heavily by the jets. Jets?...unsure. Lets try various configurations....

- Dailan: Infantry has pretty good cover on this map with lots of enclosed areas and tall buildings. Even with the 4 choppers and heavy air , troop movements can take place. With that said, I would still suggest dumping the two chopper spawns on the flags...4 choppers is just a LOT imo. Thinking ahead though if you get rid of the chopper at the reactor towers there still should be some extra reward for taking that flag since its so brutal to defend it with minimal cover around. Change the chopper spawn there to a mini apc maybe? Jets?...I would say leave them as stock. Try with just 1 per side for feedback. Summary: This map could be one of the best if the air game was just reduced a little bit.

- Daqing: Stock is pretty good on this map. Tons of cover whether its buildings or vegatation so those on the ground can move around fine. Lots of 50 cals and AA to handle the choppers. I wouldn't change much here. My only beef would be moving around in armor...death comes a bit too easy/quick from above. Perhaps a little tweak on the air.(change bomber to fighter?)

- SONGHUA: With the blackhawk guns nerfed this map seems perfect now as far as balancing goes. I can't remember the last time I played it though...lets see it more in rotation! Just make sure its the 32 player version so the North Perimeter flag is no longer in play.

- Karland: Not a fan of bleed on this map. Since I think its safe to say this is most people's favorite map, why would we want it to end faster? I miss the epic 60 min long karland battles...they seem to occur a lot less now with bleed on.

- Kubra: No solid idea so heres a random suggestion. Don't take this too seriously. Looking at a map will help visualize all this. Dump the Supervisor Base and Bridge Base flags...no one cares about them or enjoys attacking/defending them since they are so far away from the main conflicts. This leaves the 6 southern flags and helps cut down a bit on the travel time on the map.(always a complaint) With less flags and less travel time infantry battles become a bit more intense.(good) Jets? Change it to the 32 player version as far as jets go. That leaves one per side I believe. This will let the armor(which is also very important as transport on this large map) move around some.

Now for the radical idea. Choppers. Dump the base choppers. Leave the one to spawn on the Lower Dam but do not give that flag to the MEC upon start. Ya they will probably capture it first but that is not the point. Having this the only chopper spawn would encourage dam fighting greatly. Maybe its just me but I'm intrigued by the tactics that would develop in moving/attacking/defending on that dam. Ya the chopper spawn was there before but with it being the only one that spot will become the Central Island of Kubra. Of course the heavy dam fighting could all be poor in execution but it just seems like it would play out very cool in my head. Last mention...Intake?...not a UCB.