Infantry class balance

[BHack]

Of all the things done wrong in BF2, I think they did an exceptional job balancing the different classes. The weapons, the roles, the special abilities... etc, you can tell they spent a lot of time playtesting deviations and things to make every class unique and useful.

SpecOps seemed dominant to me at first but then I realized the killing ability of the C4 was off set by the lack of armor and stopping power of the primary weapon. (however I think the G36C throws off this balance, and I'm glad we dont' allow unlocks because of this).

Then for a long time I held the belief that the sniper class was underpowered and mostly useless. Recent playtime with this class proves otherwise. They are incredibly effective and deadly against soft targets at range. You'd think otherwise listening to the accuracy complaints in other bf2 forums, but I think making them any more accurate or damaging would quickly overpower the class.

The AT guys are well balanced with their weakness against infantry and lack of grenades.

The engineer is the only class I still see with some weakness issues... but then again I haven't played that class much. Maybe I should just ask robocop what I'm missing out on.

[Chopstix]

Support. If they gave support the ability to put up thier tripods while in prone, it would definatly balance them out in my opinion. They the crappiest kit right now by far, ammo is not too useful since you can always pick up kits, shooting while standing or crouching is pretty useless, and you can only get so much accuracy from prone. TRIPODS DAMMIT!

[aculle01]

they do have bipods...you always have to wait a second as your guy unfolds them when you equip the gun. Personally I think the support is pretty decent, up close you can win a good amount of fights. I think the tactical mod makes them perfect and EA has already mentioned that they hope to improve the support kit with the next patch.

[AzrealDarkmoon]

SF got support right. In SF support are killing machines!

[Delta_Swift]

From a teamplay perspective, I think the AT class is balanced. Assuming the DAO-12 is not available, the AT can do massive damage to vehicles while being fairly vulnerable to infantry. Disabling armor and other vehicles is his primary objective, not killing people.

However, if you take the AT out of the TG mindset (score is arbitrary...victory is more important), the class is unbalanced. Without the DAO-12, the AT class has a hard time wracking up a decent score. It can tear a tank to shreds, but if the driver hops out he gets no points. Also, one AT can hammer a chopper into a flaming hunk of metal, but if one infantryman hits the chopper with a single round before it explodes, the infantryman gets the kill. If the AT does not have a DAO-12 it is very difficult to handle infantry well. Before the DAO-12, I was pretty good with the SMGs and could win about 50% of all 1 vs 1 engagements on an average day, however that's when I was at the top of my game and on public servers. The DAO-12 spoiled me and now I'm having to remaster the SMG.

With the DAO-12 the AT is no longer disadvantaged against other infantry classes (in man to man combat). At range he is clearly disadvantaged, but this is balanced by his domination of the close range. Combine the equalizing effects of this weapon with an AT player's experience and developed skill and they can be more than just anti-vehicle specialists, but also an effective infantry killer.

Now don't get me wrong. I still enjoy playing AT on TG servers without the DAO-12. Despite being less effective against infantry, I try to put the team and victory first. We can still win even if I get mopped up by infantry. However, if unlocks should ever be made available again I'd be an even happier camper.

[Snail88]

Originally Posted by aculle01

they do have bipods...you always have to wait a second as your guy unfolds them when you equip the gun.

I believe he meant like how mg's are "setup" in dod source. It should takes a few seconds to set up your mg (be it on the ground, a sandbag, a windowsil, etc) using your bipod but by doing so it should become almost and deadly as the regular mounted mg's. The increased accuracy is ofset by their complete lack of mobility. A well placed HS or noob tube can take him out easily. I think it would make support a joy to play having deployable bipods, IMO.

[icky]

Originally Posted by Snail88

I believe he meant like how mg's are "setup" in dod source. It should takes a few seconds to set up your mg (be it on the ground, a sandbag, a windowsil, etc) using your bipod but by doing so it should become almost and deadly as the regular mounted mg's. The increased accuracy is ofset by their complete lack of mobility. A well placed HS or noob tube can take him out easily. I think it would make support a joy to play having deployable bipods, IMO.

I agree. And I am happy to see people recognizing that the classes ARE well balanced as long as the stock weapons are used. I was feeling very alone in my view that the unlocks ruin the class balance.

[BHack]

In regards to the support issue. I don't think picking up kits is a very reliable way to get ammo. As an assault SL, I always ask for a support to keep feeding my "noob toob" adventures.

Plus, support is good at close range, and has unlimited grenades, which is very helpful in some situations.

People that think it sucks are usually the ones that try to play it like its an assault class.

As a side note, I notice its not a good idea to be constantly switching kits in this game. It really throws off when you keep forgetting what kit your currently using, and sticking to one definitely increases your efficiency with it.

[asch]

When thinking about the engineer class you have to think about the role of the engineer. They are a supporting role. They work behind the front lines. They're meant to keep vehicles repaired and slow down advancing enemy vehicles with their use of mines.

I don't expect the engineer to be up on the front lines fighting. They may be up front, but again it's provide support by dropping mines and repairing vehicles. Their shotgun should only be used as a last defense if the other combat classes can't stop them.

Then there is always their use within a vehicle.

[MeanDrLily]

I love the support kit's unlimited 'nades. Tossing down a few packs, then hiding behind a wall throwing over little bundles of death makes my night.

The engineer kit is pretty useless to me, except in close quarters combat. It would have been slick if they gave the weapon from BF1942 along with the shotty. Then I'd be in heaven!

[Boot]

Support... the crappiest kit right now by far, ammo is not too useful since you can always pick up kits, shooting while standing or crouching is pretty useless, and you can only get so much accuracy from prone.

Ok, you're bagging on my favorite kit at the moment... I find "only so much" can be quite enough when I use the kit right. Which brings me to share Boot's tips for a good supporter:

1. To be a good SAW man, you have to mentally remap your twitch from fire to prone. Once you're on the ground, your accuracy will be close to what the assault guy has crouching. Ironically, in this state you are more vulnerable to shotties than you are to rifles.

2. Versus infy, fire in short bursts. Your accuracy will be better. Overall, the MEC gun is the more accurate of the stock guns so start there. If you have opportunity, the PKM fires even more accurately (especially at close range) but slower. Versus buggies and choppers, just don't overheat.

3. Don't underestimate your power to attack light vehicles. You don't need to be AT to make a buggy or chopper think twice about sticking around. Especially choppers... they'll be out of sight before you'd blow them up, but with some of the chopper pilots we have around here I prefer to keep them out of sight, and the good pilots realize when they're taking fire and leave. The bad ones stick around and die.

4. Throw packs everywhere. For points? No, for your AT guy who will always be one shy of what he needs... for your SpecOps who just C4'd the flag but now you're moving out... and for courtesy to that medic who just gave you your life back... and under every friendly APC or Tank that rolls by.

5. On offense, don't be first to rush the defended flag. Coordinate with your SL to use support right ... find a spot, go prone, and light up the defensive positions. You are the base of fire and if you can keep their heads down, or heads pointed your way, you will give your assault element time to hit the flag. I've had some good rounds where I could see the enemy but not hit them, but spread enough fire over their heads that they stayed put until the flanking team took them out.

6. On defense, find a choke point or two to cover. Be prone when you fire. Wait until 3 of them are through the hole in the fence before you cut loose. You'll take advantage of the fact that you have lots of ammo to waste (them with).

7. Behind enemy lines? Follow your SpecOps as they sprint for the enemy assets. One SpecOp and one support can take out the whole of the enemy CO's apparatus pretty quickly. Just make sure you're far enough away when he hits the trigger...

In the end, this kit is as balanced as the others... as long as you maximize the strong points (rate and volume of fire) to make up for the weaknesses (accuracy).

I think it's on topic ... what's your fav kit and what advice do you have for those of us who don't like it/play it much?

[Delta_Swift]

The only thing I think we need to keep in mind about the "support classes" is when they are not in a scrimmage they're supposed to have fun too, so we shouldn't restrict them to acting completely like rear support. An engineer might be great at holding a back flag by laying mines and repairing vehicles that retreat to his position, but that doesn't mean it's fun. We should allow them to go up and get some action sometimes too.

Or if you as an SL require your men to act strictly within their defined class descriptions, then you should rotate your guys in those roles so that one guy is not forced to be a rear support troop every round.

[ChIck3nL3gz]

Originally Posted by Snail88

I believe he meant like how mg's are "setup" in dod source. It should takes a few seconds to set up your mg (be it on the ground, a sandbag, a windowsil, etc) using your bipod but by doing so it should become almost and deadly as the regular mounted mg's. The increased accuracy is ofset by their complete lack of mobility. A well placed HS or noob tube can take him out easily. I think it would make support a joy to play having deployable bipods, IMO.

I play Support more times than anything else. And no, the gun's bi-pod does not function as intended.

It looks as though it works if you happen to get up next to a teammate using the gun but it doesn't work. It's just there for looks.

I'd like it if they on the next patch would make the bi-pod functional. DoD Beta had it right. I don't know about DoD Source as I haven't played the new DoD and I don't ever plan on it.

I do like the support character however. I like the SAW it's got a decent amount of ammo and it is a pretty strong weapon provided you can hit anythign with it. I find it does work best prone mainly because it doesn't climb as much, but it still climbs. If the bi-pod worked there'd be a lot less muzzle climb.

[Lucky Shot]

I think the classes are well balanced even though my talents don't work well with all kits. Support works extremely well for me and works well for my own personal battle cry... One Clip, One Kill...

Lucky Shot

[Coridon]

Originally Posted by Delta_Swift

The only thing I think we need to keep in mind about the "support classes" is when they are not in a scrimmage they're supposed to have fun too, so we shouldn't restrict them to acting completely like rear support. An engineer might be great at holding a back flag by laying mines and repairing vehicles that retreat to his position, but that doesn't mean it's fun.

Really? You've obviously never been part of an armor crew that racked up 74 kills to 3 deaths (or thereabouts). As others have said, the kits are supposed to augment each other and if you have a well balanced squad with people quite familiar with their kits it's not only tough to beat but a blast indeed. If you truly care about the overall "health" of the squad you won't mind sitting in the vodnik and wrenching away while someone else mans the .50 cal.

Engineer is one of my favorite classes and I've noticed the more I play it the less I even pull out the ol' shotty. I'm spending more time near the mounted MGs on defense and keeping the vehicles alive on offense. It's also a good kit to learn the beauty of pistols in this game.