Riots over a cartoon.

[CingularDuality]

Well, it looks like a bad time to be a Dane living in the Middle East. All because of this cartoon:



I don't think a day goes by that I'm not reminded of how lucky I am to have been born in America.

[Trooper]

its the ideals and principle behind that photo that has all the Muslims upset. Its because its against the Muslims religion to make pictures of Muhammad. And for a democratic country to print such photos, especially in countries with such muslim population. Then to make things worse other countries just start printing them and causing more problems.

Yeah i know its freedom of speech, but with such freedom comes intelligence to say don't print this because its going to cause problems.

[Steeler]

It's a sad thing. I think the Dutch paper was wrong to publish an inflammatory cartoon with the intent of provoking (highlighted to make my point clear) a passionate response, and the mass rioting underscores the vast cultural divide - that the West values pluralism while devout Islam demands orthodoxy.

[Boot]

Originally Posted by Steeler

It's a sad thing. I think the Dutch paper was wrong to publish an inflammatory cartoon with the intent of provoking (highlighted to make my point clear) ...

Was this intent proven? I don't think anyone could have predicted where this would end up at the time of initial publication. Now the other European magazines re-running it, that I could see as provocative.

I tell you, as an American who travels abroad frequently, that it is both comforting and disturbing. Comforting in the sense that America is not in the spotlight on this one, and it almost seems like a "See, we told you" moment... this region of the world is unstable and it's not so much America that they're against as the idea that anyone would dare to express an unpopular idea.

But it's disturbing in the sense that this area is so unstable that a cartoon is causing riots, embassy burnings, and general breakdown of law and order. We've come to believe that there is a small, radical faction in the Islamic world that hopes for the destruction of the West, but the differences are much more clear this past week. The free exchange of ideas is a foundation of Western society. Apparently, not so in the mid-East.



But in the end, to say the papers shouldn't have published this because someone was going to get mad smacks of appeasement. This is a fundamental difference that is manifesting itself in violent means: through terrorism, outright warfare, or civil disorder. It will continue until either both sides agree, or one side wins.

I fly though Denmark twice this week. I'll let you guys know what I see in terms of security, etc.

[Bommando]

It's hard to pinpoint where the lines should be drawn between "free speech" and "respect".

On one hand, I strongly endorse the notion of free speech, but there is some element of self-regulation that should come into play when dealing with sensitive matters. I believe many Muslims would find such a cartoon just as offensive as say a family whose dead daughter's picture was published in a paper. Sure, the paper would likely have every right to publish the picture (depending on local laws), but if the family objects, would it be right to do so?

Likewise a cartoon depicting Jesus Christ as a pedophile for example (I won't bother linking to the picture, I'm sure we've all seen it). I am not religious, so would not take offence, but would probably defer to the sensitivities of Christians who would be appalled to see their patron depicted in such a manner, especially in a time of existing religious tensions.

It's not a call I would really want to make, but it draws some interesting parallels.

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by Bommando

Likewise a cartoon depicting Jesus Christ as a pedophile for example (I won't bother linking to the picture, I'm sure we've all seen it).

OT: I had never seen it before, so I Googled for it and saw one funny one and a few really dumb ones...

You're right. The editors of the newspaper probably should've cut that cartoon before it was run, but they should not be under any legal obligation to do so.

This is not the same as shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater, as this cartoon was intended to spark debate, not to spark riots.

[Quest Shady]

I agree with cing... The picture may have been of bad taste but it is always a a matter of taste...I meen in this country (USA where this was written) for every president, religion, race, creed, sex and every little demographic you can think of, there will be a cartoon or joke making fun of it or degrading it...some tasteless, some funny as heck. But to riot over such things....?

Oh and I am sure the Christians have seen the Jesus as a ped pictures...still no riots...maybe a lot of moaning and groaning...But nobody dead, hurt or such...(YET)

Can't we all just get along on a TG server and work out our differences online with an AK or M4... ;-)

Of course I was on a Submarine for 4 years so my skin is pretty thick...LOL

[SmokingTarpan]

Gotta say, those who are rioting are doing nothing more than proving the point that the cartoon conveys. It's lovely to fight against a stereotype, only to act in that stereotypical way when provoked. Thus one of my problems with religion; and hell, large parts of society in general.

Hope the area settles down soon, this is sad all around.

[Leonidas]

Heh, the irony of that cartoon and the reaction it sparked is pretty funny.

Really though, you don't see christians burning embassies over the Jesus-pedophile cartoon. Its like how there were riots in Iran after some retarded reporter ate up the lies of some dirtbag terrorist about the flushing of a koran in guantanamo bay.

I mean, come on. Would you ever see christians rioting over the flushing of a bible? Or jews? No. Stop making excuses for these people. You can find christians just as poor and uneducated, and even they wouldn't do something like this. Why the different standard?

What I find stunning is that the Danish embassy was acually burned. You can bet that would never have happend with the Marines at our embassies. After it was evacuated and empty, maybe, but not with them on duty. Rioters are almost always cowards (Typical of a mob) , so if you put down a few, the rest usually scatter.

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by bootstrap

Was this intent proven? I don't think anyone could have predicted where this would end up at the time of initial publication. Now the other European magazines re-running it, that I could see as provocative.

From what I have read, the offending cartoon in particular was one of several comissioned with the express intent to needle the European Muslim population. The cartoons appeared in the Jyllands Posten, a traditionally right-wing publication, in an article about press self-censorship. Muslim integration into Western society is a hot button issue in Europe right now, so it's not like this was considered in a vacuum. I doubt they could have forseen global riots as a result, but they were certainly expecting some sort of response. Certainly the subsequent reprints in other papers knew what the response would be.

Once these things get started, they have a political and cultural weight of their own, as people pick their sides and start throwing rocks. I would never claim that they don't have the right to publish what they want, but I would characterize it as unwise. The various editors have certainly put a lot of third parties at risk by their actions.

That doesn't excuse the dogmatic rabid insane response, of course. And I'm sure Syria could have easily prevented the destruction of those embassies. That was definitley a conscious decision to let that happen.

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by Steeler

And I'm sure Syria could have easily prevented the destruction of those embassies. That was definitley a conscious decision to let that happen.

Keep in mind that Syria is still dealing with Lebanon and now Palestine, too. I think that it might have been better to let the Danish embassy go, rather than spark a Syrian/Lebanese war so soon...

[Boot]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

This is not the same as shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater, as this cartoon was intended to spark debate, not to spark riots.

It occurs to me that in Syria riots are the form of debate. We're dealing with a culture in which power is derived from the fist, club, axe, bow, and gun. If you disagree with us, we will burn you. When, perhaps not if, Iran gets its nuke we will see the winds or regime change again.

Imagine if the US had never moved on Afghanistan or Iraq. If Osama had held his wrath. If Iran quietly completed its nuclear ambitions. If these guys had worked together, more like Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, we would be facing another cold war with base energy as the main weapon. It would have crippled the world economy.

This was a very real possibility, but for the fragmentation of the militant elements. Osama struck too early, and the US was in a mood to take this on by frontal assault. But draw some parallels to what WWII history teaches us. Starting from Bush's assertion that Iraq and N.Korea comprise an Axis of Evil: Afghanistan is North Africa; Iraq is Italy; now Iran is penned in and nervous ... despite the rhetoric.

The Iraqi insurgency is part of all of this. Iran and Syria both know that if democracy takes hold in the mid-East the power of radical Islam fades. They need this to be about US domination, because once people over there start to think for themselves, they'll wonder what they need the dictators for.

It's funny. As much as I disagree with Karl Marx philosophically, he is right about one thing: Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[CingularDuality]

FYI, here are the rest of the cartoons that people are up in arms over: http://www.aina.org/releases/20060201143237.htm

[Faultline]

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

Gotta say, those who are rioting are doing nothing more than proving the point that the cartoon conveys.

Absolutely. You'd think someone over there would get it. Apparently not though.

Now, I know that unemployment in the region is high, but where do all these folks find the time to board buses and travel several hours just to go burn down an embassy over a cartoon? Couldn't they be at least looking for work?

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by bootstrap

It occurs to me that in Syria riots are the form of debate. We're dealing with a culture in which power is derived from the fist, club, axe, bow, and gun. If you disagree with us, we will burn you.

You are painting with a very broad brush there. These are the crzies out in the streets. Don't fall into the LGF zone.