I Have a Plan to destroy America.

[Rincewind]

A speech which you may or may not have read:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp

Seems like a good time to bring it up (again?).

[CingularDuality]

That is a spectacular speech.

And there's one point that I think is quite important on the immigration debate. He mentions the fact that individual illegal aliens may be great folks just coming here to work, but that the cumulative effect of having tens of millions of illegal aliens invading our nation is what's dangerous...

[El_Gringo_Grande]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

That is a spectacular speech.

And there's one point that I think is quite important on the immigration debate. He mentions the fact that individual illegal aliens may be great folks just coming here to work, but that the cumulative effect of having tens of millions of illegal aliens invading our nation is what's dangerous...

Is the danger the same if it is tens of millions of legal aliens? Meaning if the doors where thrown wide open and people could enter and become Americans rather easily do you think it would have the same effect?

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

Is the danger the same if it is tens of millions of legal aliens? Meaning if the doors where thrown wide open and people could enter and become Americans rather easily do you think it would have the same effect?

Absolutely. Well, with the exception of no longer needing any type of border security due to the impossibility of such a thing...

Our nation can NOT accept everyone that wants to come here for a better life. That's the whole reason why immigration laws were created in the first place...

[El_Gringo_Grande]

(Note: this is NOT targeted anybody in particular. It is just a rant.)

Ok.

I wish those debating this issue would just come out and discuss it honestly. This applies to all sides.

I would suspect that a significant percentage of those against illegal immigration are, in fact, against all immigration. Some only support letting "good" people immigrate. Others don't mind immigration just want to limit it to a rational and agreed upon number.

I don't see anybody discussing what should be done about all the unfulfilled jobs that would result. This will happen. We are at a very low un-employment rate, removing a large source of workers will have negative effects on our economy. Could cause inflation to go crazy. It could also cause many employers to move their operations to where the workers are. This is also negative for the country.

On the flip side you don't see supporters admitting that these large numbers of illegal workers are suppressing the job market for untrained American workers. It is causing some people to stress. I does not matter if those stressing are bigoted or simply afraid of change, it is negatively affecting some Americans and needs to be addressed. It is putting stress on social services, usually in areas that have very few resources to begin with. And it does create pockets of sub-cultures that have no desire to integrate with the country. This happens because these workers DON'T want in integrate, they are here only for the jobs. [1]

(
What is not happening is rational discussion of the situation. Everybody has to admit certain things. (I suspect that those in power do not want a rational discussion. They want a purely emotional response because that kind of response is easier to manipulate.)

What has to be admitted is that there is a problem with the current laws. There are to many people breaking them throughout the United States. When this many otherwise law abiding citizens break the law this consistently, something is rotten.

It could be any number of things but we don't every get to figure this out because every body is being such a child about it. Yelling, screaming, playing games (those stupid minute men) and hiding simple bigotry and xenophobia behind the guise of enforcing the law. Or hiding a secrete desire to upset the current power stucture through chaos.



1. This is why I think guest worker passes are bad. They create these little pockets of disengaged individuals that do not share the "American Dream".

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

(I suspect that those in power do not want a rational discussion. They want a purely emotional response because that kind of response is easier to manipulate.)

See also:
- Iraq
- Homeland security
- Social Security
- Healthcare
- Poverty
- Tax policy
- Etc.

[Lucky Shot]

So because I am against illegal immigration, I am against all immigration? Wow... So if I am FOR Illegal immigration, I am also for regular immigration?

I think it's important to have strong borders and to also allow immigration. But if you are breaking the law just coming into the country, guess I don't think your going to have a great track record of upholding any of our other laws once your in.

The lack of quality workers will force employers to become MORE efficient in order to stay in business. Or they will pay more for quality workers who perform better than average.

I don't think there is a case of too many laws, but perhaps the willingness to break them is that there isn't a sufficient punishment to keep people from breaking them. The desire from some to make more laws instead of enforcing those already on the books is disconcerting.

The fact remains that 10% of Mexico's population is in the US illegaly. In some respects, it can be considered government sanctioned. The US has 2% of our population in Iraq. If you don't like the laws the way they are, suggest changes, but suggesting not enforcing the laws only encourage the breaking of laws.

Lucky Shot

[Kerostasis]

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

The fact remains that 10% of Mexico's population is in the US illegaly. In some respects, it can be considered government sanctioned. The US has 2% of our population in Iraq.

Wait, where'd you get that number? By my count, about 0.05% of our population is in Iraq.

[Lucky Shot]

Originally Posted by Kerostasis

Wait, where'd you get that number? By my count, about 0.05% of our population is in Iraq.

Saw it somewhere. If you have a better number than I do, dig it out, I don't have a problem being corrected. Even if my number turned out to be awfully high, it's still much lower than the number of mexicans in the US illegally. It's funny, that wasn't the percentage that I expected to be questioned over.

Lucky Shot

[leejo]

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

I would suspect that a significant percentage of those against illegal immigration are, in fact, against all immigration.

I haven't seen any evidence of that whatsoever. Have you? I've seen vague charges of racism that I consider expedient politics.

[Steeler]

Having read the speech all the way through now (I'm ming in EVE - lot's of spare time ATM), I disagree with it's core assumptions. Namely, that multiculturalism is inherently dangerous or weakening to our national character. Also the now very tired cry of the ethnic conservative that we are victimized by victimization. Shorter version: minorities should stop whining.

As for the bilingual issue - there are dozens and dozens of peaceful and prosperous societies (including our own) with a multi-lingual culture, reflected both in local parlances and in civic communications. Severe, society-rending conflict between cultures usually occurs when speakers of various languages segregate themselves or are forcibly segregated by the state.

Finally, this celebration of Victor Davis Hansen is really not healthy. He is a neoconservative hack who to has consistently failed to take an honest analysis of events, and has demonstrably allowed his political bias to taint his research. He's more of a TV personality than an academic at this point.

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by Steeler

As for the bilingual issue - there are dozens and dozens of peaceful and prosperous societies (including our own) with a multi-lingual culture, reflected both in local parlances and in civic communications. Severe, society-rending conflict between cultures usually occurs when speakers of various languages segregate themselves or are forcibly segregated by the state.

Any Canadians want to chime in on the inaccuracy of this opinion?

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by El_Gringo_Grande

What has to be admitted is that there is a problem with the current laws. There are to many people breaking them throughout the United States. When this many otherwise law abiding citizens break the law this consistently, something is rotten.

Your last post was great, but I quoted a serious error. How would we know if there's a problem with our current laws if we don't enforce them? We've had the authority to go after employers that hire illegal aliens since 1986. Why don't we? Because too many politicians are "dusty" (this is just shy of being dirty) and they pressure our federal law enforcement agencies to ignore certain industries that are big in their district. This happens. A lot.

If Immigration authorities are hobbled by Congress and the President, how can we ever really know what our laws would really do when they're enforced?

[El_Gringo_Grande]

Originally Posted by leejo

I haven't seen any evidence of that whatsoever. Have you? I've seen vague charges of racism that I consider expedient politics.

Oh yea. But I live in Oklahoma. And I am from rural Oklahoma. Many of the people I know here are against all immigration. They do not want anybody that isn't one of them. (Yankees are tolerated, but just.)

The funny thing is they still hire them to work the farms and care for their children. But go to the coffee shop and listen to locals talk and the Mexicans and Arabs (and all light brown skinned people are one of the two) are hear to destroy our country.

Not everybody is like this. Some do appreciate that the Mexicans have revitalized small towns and are willing to let sleeping dogs lie. They are not the majority.

[Steeler]

Originally Posted by CingularDuality

Any Canadians want to chime in on the inaccuracy of this opinion?

Specifically, is Canada on the brink of destruction?