Kill Messages Options

[Ale]

Some thoughts on the lack of Kill Messages:

+ve: Realism: For obvious reasons this is more realistic and, for me, enhances the gameplay experience. E.g. someone is surpressing you and you're wildly firing back to put them off from cover, the firing stops and you don't know if they've died or just waiting for you to stick your head out so they can pop it : great suspense.

-ve: What Beatnik said:

Originally Posted by Beatnik

One other request would be to make the Kill message option server configurable, giving servers the option to turn it on or off. I ask this because we have (as you may have seen) AAR (After Action Report) forums, and most people on our servers are regulars that frequent the forums. Debriefing and discussing the games is MUCH better when you know who you were up against, and it also allows us to adjust our tactics accordingly. My tactics of choice vary widely depending on which in-house squad I'm up against, which I believe makes for a better gaming experience.
Also, it allows us admins, who rely on problem reports in Teamspeak by our regular players, to more efficiently enforce the strict rules on our servers when people can give us a name.

Perhaps there is a balance to be struck:
If kill messages were delayed, say by a minute or so, you'd know who you killed but only a while after the killing. So say you grenaded three chumps trying to cap your flag, a minute later up pops:

You killed Ale
You killed Ale's mom
You killed Ale's dog

Giving you the opportunity to chuckle away.

You'd also know when the next attack wave come's who it's likely to be, and can adapt accordingly.

Is this feasable?/ might we have the capability to implement this ourselves?

[AMosely]

I concur - the TG community benefits from being able to determine and keep track of who kills who.

[Strag]

From what I've been told, my perspective is more "hard core" than that of others at TG. My thoughts/suggestions:

This is PRM, not vanilla. I don't like the obits, and I'd prefer that they stay off. I like having to confirm kills, and I like NOT knowing who I'm up against. I'd rather have to adjust my tactics based on what an unknown enemy is doing. It keeps the game fresh, and it makes things much more interesting, in my opinion.

If the desire is to draw more of the "hard core" players to PRM, making it more like vanilla is not the way to do it.

[Rick_the_new_guy]

Originally Posted by Strag

From what I've been told, my perspective is more "hard core" than that of others at TG. My thoughts/suggestions:

This is PRM, not vanilla. I don't like the obits, and I'd prefer that they stay off. I like having to confirm kills, and I like NOT knowing who I'm up against. I'd rather have to adjust my tactics based on what an unknown enemy is doing. It keeps the game fresh, and it makes things much more interesting, in my opinion.

If the desire is to draw more of the "hard core" players to PRM, making it more like vanilla is not the way to do it.

Good thoughts Ale.

Beatnik made a good point about admins lossing one of their resources that help keep the server clean.

If TG, changed it to showing kills up, I play the mod somwere else.

I agree with Strag 100%.

[aculle01]

I like it without the kill messages.

[perry]

My sense for community and fellowship outweighs my sense for "reality." I tried this mod once and doubt that I'll play it again until kill messages reappear.

[jmaker]

It doesn't matter to me either way. I can see both sides to the argument. Having no kill messages will no longer spawn detailed AAR's where you have people posting knife kills of Santa or Mantis and everyone laughing and having a good time because of the difficulty of just killing those skilled players. If that's what perry means by "sense for community and fellowship" then I guess I see his point.

On the flip side though, you're not worried about who's who and entirely focusing on the situation and not the player. You're not going to have "Robocop just blew my head off, look the hell out around the corner". Instead you're going to have "I'm down, hostile standing on my body, flank around behind him..." or something like that. I'm definitely a lot more focused in PR. Partly because I'm trying to decipher friendly from foe. But that's getting a little easier.

[asch]

I enjoy both having kill messages and not having them. It's great to trash talk someone over teamspeak when you get the drop on someone. But then there is more immersion with them off.

I've found myself instructing my squad to verbally confirm kills. If someone spots an enemy they need to let us know if they take them down. It's a bit of a change from other mods, but I've liked it so far. Asking for kill confirmations from my squadmates has also broken the ice a bit for some of those who are too shy to communicate.

[Ale]

Whoa! I didn't expect such impassioned resposes, especially as the kill messages have been around for a while.

This issue is a tough one for me because I like 'em both on and off.
(let's be clear- i'm talking about the messages on the left of the screen - 'you were killed by x' rather than those at the top 'x knifed y')

Would this be too unfair as a client side option? It may not be too much of an advantage to know when you killed someone .

The other solution that I think would work is having a delay between the kill and the message, by a minute or so. Would our hardcore realists go along with this?

Of course, these solutions are just fantasy unless we can implement. Unfortunately I have no modding knowledge whatsoever. The other obstacle is getting it into PRM; perhaps we get what we want in TacMod, which PRM has hopefully not killed.

[BigGaayAl]

I also see both sides of the argument.

As a tool for admins the kill messages seem less important because generally the standard of play is higher on PR. I do miss seeing who I killed occasionally.

But changing my tactics because I know I am up against a certain squad (which I do consciously in vanilla) always makes me feel a bit dirty. Feels like a cheat to me.

Though call to make. The suggestion of a delay would solve the issue of easy kill confirmation, but you would still be able to adapt tactics based on the identity of the squad you are engaging.

It's worth a try though since it IS sort of a position in between the other two.

[Beatnik]

Originally Posted by Strag

If the desire is to draw more of the "hard core" players to PRM, making it more like vanilla is not the way to do it.

Is our objective to cater to only the most hard core sim fans (who have their own hardcore sim engines in other games), or to the TG BF2 faithful who are looking to have the same sense of community in this mod they get from other mods, and to strengthen that sense of community? I know the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (quite the opposite), but it's definitely my position that the absence of kill messages takes away a significant part of the "TG-feel" from the mod. We saw the same issue in the development of the Tac Mod: the absence of kill messages were resoundingly unpopular. In a more real-world example, I'd liken it to playing paintball with your friends on a regular basis vs. playing in some kind of extended league, where you never know who you're playing against.

I couldn't care less about the kill messages if I was playing on a pub server. However, if I know half the other team, it makes a huges difference in my enjoyment of the game to know that I just sniped Santa from 300m. I understand that there are some positive aspects of not having the kill messages, but I think the benefits to the community (as well as giving the admins MUCH greater power to police the server) far outweigh those aspects.

[Strag]

Originally Posted by Beatnik

Is our objective to cater to only the most hard core sim fans (who have their own hardcore sim engines in other games), or to the TG BF2 faithful who are looking to have the same sense of community in this mod they get from other mods, and to strengthen that sense of community?

The purpose of PRM is to alter BF2 and make it a more "realistic" game. From the PRM website:

Project Reality is a modification for the Battlefield 2 engine. The developer's aims are to rework the original game engine developed by Digital Illusions of Sweden (Dice) to recreate a realistic combat environment. This includes adjusting the game's various elements that include physics, visual effects and gameplay. Along with changes to how the game handles, the PR team intends to include additional factions such as the British Military, and add to or alter existing factions so that they resemble real life military elements found within their respective environments.

The name 'Project Reality' is not solely for the purpose of throwing around a catchy title. Project Reality's team has a group of dedicated individuals, several of whom have backgrounds in armed services. Whose sole task it is to provide researched findings and statistical information to the developers tasked with creating the mod itself. If you are looking for a fact based FPS shooter from the perspective of a Soldier, Project Reality will be there to cater to those needs.

(Emphasis added.)

PRM was created to offer an alternative in BF2 for folks wanting a more sim-like experience, and I fully support that effort. For those folks who do not want this experience, there is always vanilla and PoE:2.

By altering PRM to play more like vanilla and PoE:2, you will dilute a mod that, by design, was meant to cater to the more "hard core" (those wanting a more "realistic combat experience") type of players. As a member of the crowd to which the PRM developers are trying to cater, I would hate to see that happen.

[Beatnik]

Originally Posted by Strag

The purpose of PRM is to alter BF2 and make it a more "realistic" game. From the PRM website:

Project Reality is a modification for the Battlefield 2 engine. The developer's aims are to rework the original game engine developed by Digital Illusions of Sweden (Dice) to recreate a realistic combat environment. This includes adjusting the game's various elements that include physics, visual effects and gameplay. Along with changes to how the game handles, the PR team intends to include additional factions such as the British Military, and add to or alter existing factions so that they resemble real life military elements found within their respective environments.

The name 'Project Reality' is not solely for the purpose of throwing around a catchy title. Project Reality's team has a group of dedicated individuals, several of whom have backgrounds in armed services. Whose sole task it is to provide researched findings and statistical information to the developers tasked with creating the mod itself. If you are looking for a fact based FPS shooter from the perspective of a Soldier, Project Reality will be there to cater to those needs.

(Emphasis added.)

PRM was created to offer an alternative in BF2 for folks wanting a more sim-like experience, and I fully support that effort. For those folks who do not want this experience, there is always vanilla and PoE:2.

By altering PRM to play more like vanilla and PoE:2, you will dilute a mod that, by design, was meant to cater to the more "hard core" (those wanting a more "realistic combat experience") type of players. As a member of the crowd to which the PRM developers are trying to cater, I would hate to see that happen.

That's a respectable position Strag and I understand it (and in fact agree with almost all of your post), just happen to disagree with you on the kill messages issue. I don't see it as much making it "more like vanilla and POE2" or "diluting the mod" as much as I see it as giving us the option to be better admins and have richer interaction with other TG BF2 regulars.

[Rick_the_new_guy]

Originally Posted by Beatnik

... However, if I know half the other team, it makes a huges difference in my enjoyment of the game to know that I just sniped Santa from 300m...

Maybe we should just have a kill message when Santa dies. I do miss myself and others saying, "Santa's down!, Santa's down!, I got em.

Another squad member: "did you check for medics?"

Santa killer: "Wha... I $%^&, I'm down."

Another squad member: "His bodies gone? His bodies gone! O dear Lord, He's been revived. / squad member runs for his life, yet gets cut down by the enemy.

[John CANavar]

Originally Posted by Beatnik

it makes a huges difference in my enjoyment of the game to know that I just sniped Santa from 300m.

Just for sake of discussion, consider the other side of the medallion Beatnik. Players with exceptional skills may quite easily ruin the fun for other, less-skilled players on the server. It is not a good feeling to be killed by the same name again and again. Lack of kill messages takes this kind of frustration out of the picture. Individual success is not glorified. Spotlight is on the squad, not squad member.

I've been thinking about this issue for a long time. I supported kill messages in Tac Mod for the same reasons Beatnik mentioned. But now, when all the pros and cons are evaluated, I am for no kill messages.