Ukraine > Germany

[xcannon69]

Hi let me introduce myself. My Gamertag is XCannon69 and I've been playing BF2 since the demo came out in 2004. I ran into TG in Oct 2006 and I've become accustomed to the TG way ever since. I personally find it boring if I enter a non-TG server these days. On with business...

NOTE: I recongize that the developers intended to put in variety in POE2 but I'd like to point out a few things I find unbalanced.

It has come to my attention POE2 has some serious balance issues. The most explicit case can be found when the TG server runs "Spies Like Us". I took a screenshot of Sat. Evening's game and the final results aren't pretty. (I have a pic but can't post it; not enough posts lol). The combination of the pseudo "white" camoflage uniforms Germany uses and the Ukraine VEPR results in German mass slaughter. Now people might tell me to use the German MG 36 Support gun or the G36C Spec ops gun to counter the VEPR. MG 36 fails to counter the VEPR because it fires tracers thus creating a sign with the implied message "KILL ME NOW" and the G36C cannot compete with the VEPR's ridiculously low recoil (even in semi auto).

Additionally take note of the anti air units both sides have. On Highway to Hell, Gemany recieves 1 Geopard where as Ukraine gets a SAM launcher and a Shilka. When the AA units are deployed, Ukraine devastates the air with 2 units. The overall effectiveness of the Shilka and SAM dominates the Geopard capabilities. In other words, we have two specialized units vs 1 jack of all trades. Missles on the SAM are almost guaranteed to hit and the 4 guns on the Shilka have far greater stopping power than the 2 guns on the Geopard.
Solution: In my opinion give Germany 1 more Geopard.

Lastly, as a final vivid example, look at the aircraft of the two armies. On "Battle of Sambir" Germany requires 5 men to operate the aircraft effectively where as Ukraine only needs 3 men. Since the Tornado requires 2 people shouldn't it be twice as powerful as the 1 seater Frogfoot? Lastly, take into account of the R60 missles on the Mig-25 foxbat. These missles ignore all countermeasures, they are easiest fire and forget missles in the game that have a 100% chance to hit any helo or plane in the sky.

/end essay
Now there are other minute inbalances that have not been list above but they do exist. The whole purpose of the above essay was written to engage the reader to think about the mechanical side of the game; not as a means to start civil war (lol).

*puts on flame suit*

[Lucky Shot]

Umm.... I get what you are saying and I am finding it rare where Germany wins that map. I think there is imbalance within weapon classes. Specifically Ukraine has the better Assault and Spec Ops gun. The German support weapon is absolutely nasty though in the right hands.

I understand what you are saying about the uniforms, but is there anything Germany can do to combat that?

1) Use Smoke.
2) Don't Run through the woods towards frontline flags, take your time as Germany can be tough to spot when they aren't moving.
3) Don't be afraid to come in from unexpected angles (go for back flags, circle the flag from a distance before moving in...).

Overall, while I agree that Ukraine wins more on Spies Like Us, I don't find that to be true of Orel, Carpathian, Lutsk, Fallen, Dnister, Dnipro. I do feel the Ukraine has an advantage on Spies, Zhytomyr, and Sambir.

Lucky Shot

[demyansk]

Good point lucky shot, I was playing on sat night and a lot of talk was going on about uniform colors. This does play a role and if we had a commander , perhaps things might have turned out differently. From what I see, I have always played that map from the Ukranian side until saturday night. Don't know why but it seems like whenever I play that's what happens. I believe the german side needs to stick together, use smoke, and not automatically run toward a flag like the newbs on Battlefield 2 vanilla. Play Project Reality and you will see the tactics of POE getting you killed. I think the German side has some advantages especially in the support machine gun and the medic has smoke ammo plus a nice zoom feature for the weapon. xcannon brought up some good points and I guess we could have a few more static objects in the map to make fire and movement more effective. Nice game corporate and doctor pawnage, merry Christmas

[FBmantis]

Random thoughts:

- Spies is a problem but its mostly with the uniforms. I've already posted my thoughts on the POE forum. Lets hope the devs correct this in the future...

- The MG-36 is better than the VEPR when put in the right hands. If I was running as UKR assault I would exchange the kit for this weapon most of the time if the environment was suited for the weapon.(Fallen is not) Even on Spies you can do some serious damage...no you can't overcome the uniform advantage but you can cause a lot of chaos if played correctly.

- I agree about the AA but apparently this is being corrected. If you watch the POE2 CAL final between First Punch and Nemesis you'll hear some commentary where DrunkenPirate states that the Germans will be getting an AA overhaul in the near future.(overhaul is my wording...it may just be one vehicle addition...DrunkenPirate was very vague for obvious reasons) Supposedly a news post with info was coming soon.

- Again I agree about the air game. Things should get better in the future though assuming the Tornado lock issues get corrected. Granted it will still be a bit uneven imo. Having a one man frogfoot be superior to a two-man Tornado seems a bit on the unfair side. ATM the fighters don't seem to balance things out since the MIG is a monster now.

- Welcome to the forum. Post more often.

[xcannon69]

I like to comment a little bit more about the Spies Like Us round on Sat evening. First of all we actually had a commander the first half of the game. He was giving orders and spotting targets. Still the result was slaughter. The commander (forget the name sry) actually helped us try to attack the Cabins by sticking to the edge of the map. Regardless, we were amushed from miles away and our attempt resulted in absolute loss. (Root was the SL of our squad, I think)

[xcannon69]

Can you explain how the VEPR is superior to the MG 36? Even in the right hands, the MG 36 requires one to be prone, expose themselves to sniper fire and small arms fire. Plus the tracer rounds fired by the MG 36 practically removes the stealth factor. On the other hand, the VEPR can be fired standing, crouch, or prone. Its flexible in the sense that riflemen can easily switch firing positions and engage targets without revealing the location (no tracers).

[jmaker]

Originally Posted by xcannon69

I like to comment a little bit more about the Spies Like Us round on Sat evening. First of all we actually had a commander the first half of the game. He was giving orders and spotting targets. Still the result was slaughter. The commander (forget the name sry) actually helped us try to attack the Cabins by sticking to the edge of the map. Regardless, we were amushed from miles away and our attempt resulted in absolute loss. (Root was the SL of our squad, I think)

You can blame me for that. If you were the squad who landed a boat at the very northwest edge and tried to sneak along the out of bounds line, then yeah that was me who spoiled that. I alerted the rest of my squad to head to cabins, while I intercepted you from behind. So I wouldn't feel too bad about that. I was just in the right spot at the right time to see you try to sneak by. Plus you shouldn't leave an empty boat just sit there for all of us to see.

[FBmantis]

Originally Posted by xcannon69

Can you explain how the VEPR is superior to the MG 36? Even in the right hands, the MG 36 requires one to be prone, expose themselves to sniper fire and small arms fire. Plus the tracer rounds fired by the MG 36 practically removes the stealth factor. On the other hand, the VEPR can be fired standing, crouch, or prone. Its flexible in the sense that riflemen can easily switch firing positions and engage targets without revealing the location (no tracers).

I don't really disagree with your assesment... however you really have to see past Spies to see the beauty of this gun imo. Sure the tracers are a downside on a dark map like Spies. On other maps though its not much of an issue. I dunno...maybe that gun is just an acquired taste. Me, Santa and Ust@m seem to be the only folks I ever see running around causing trouble with this weapon. Its just the rate of fire is very high and the accuracy quite good so you tend to just obliterate any opponent as soon as you see them. Granted you do have to follow certain movement techniques where you create medium range encounters and usually position yourself on high ground so the grass will not obstruct your view when prone.

For example...sweep wide when going past buildings...if you set yourself up for a close reactionary encounter with a rifleman around a corner your asking to die. On the other hand when you create medium range encounters the rifleman will likely have to switch to single shot to get solid accuracy....burst/auto rarely takes down people at anything but close range. With the MG-36 though you can immediately go prone and blast away while they are switching to single shot or wasting their time spraying bullets in auto/burst. The other major aspect of this gun is the one shot mode for longe range targets. This is what works fantastic on Spies. Your basically using a rapid fire sniper rifle when you use the one shot mode. Sure the VEPR is king on that map but I'll continue to try to show in game that the MG-36 is a worthy opponent and probably superior on other maps.

[[TEC]Doct0r-Pwnage]

the MG-36 is definitely a great gun and allot better then the RPK of course the vepr is the best there is they need to tweak it a bit imho.

Now what I have to disagree with is someone said the Ukrainian spec ops gun was better then the German and thats just hogwash. :P The Ukrainian spec ops gun is good close combat and if your target is running in a strait line towards or away from you at any other angle its almost useless and forget about tracking someone with it it shoots far to fast to be able to lead shots properly, the scope is next to useless at any sort of distance. Now compare this to the German which has a great scope, rate of fire, and damage its easy to track enemies and lead shots you can snipe fairly well at mid to longer ranges its super accurate at mid and closer for my money outside of the mg-36 the spec ops gun is the best thing the Germans have I find the Ukrainian spec ops gun to be a complete pile at least thats my 2 cents.

so just for the sake of it here is a list of how I feel the guns match up

Spec ops:
As Val ( Ukraine ) < G-36 Silenced ( Germany )

Assault:
Vepr with GP25 (Ukraine) > G-36K with AG-36 (Germany)

Medic:
AK74u (Ukraine) = G36k (Germany) [in my view the only real difference is which scope you like better]

Engineer:
TOZ-194 (Ukraine) < Benelli M4 (Germany)

Sniper:
SVD (Ukraine) > MSG90 (Germany) [this one needs to be fixed the MSG90 is a pile imho]

Support:
RPK ( Ukraine ) < MG-36 ( Germany )

Anti-Armor:
RPG-7V (Ukraine) > Panzerfaust3 (Germany)

Pick up anti-armor:
RPG-7V Tandem pick up (Ukraine) < Panzerfaust3T pick up (Germany) [the 40 rounds and the scope make a huge improvement]

Pick up anti-personal:
TBG-7V Thermobaric pick up (Ukraine) > Bunkerfaust 3 pick up (Germany) [I have to admit I don't have allot of exp with the bunker's mp7]

[demyansk]

hey pawn that was a great essay on the weapons

[shakeyjake]

Originally Posted by [TEC]Doct0r-Pwnage

the MG-36 is definitely a great gun and allot better then the RPK of course the vepr is the best there is they need to tweak it a bit imho.

Now what I have to disagree with is someone said the Ukrainian spec ops gun was better then the German and thats just hogwash. :P The Ukrainian spec ops gun is good close combat and if your target is running in a strait line towards or away from you at any other angle its almost useless and forget about tracking someone with it it shoots far to fast to be able to lead shots properly, the scope is next to useless at any sort of distance. Now compare this to the German which has a great scope, rate of fire, and damage its easy to track enemies and lead shots you can snipe fairly well at mid to longer ranges its super accurate at mid and closer for my money outside of the mg-36 the spec ops gun is the best thing the Germans have I find the Ukrainian spec ops gun to be a complete pile at least thats my 2 cents.

so just for the sake of it here is a list of how I feel the guns match up

Spec ops:
As Val ( Ukraine ) < G-36 Silenced ( Germany )

Assault:
Vepr with GP25 (Ukraine) > G-36K with AG-36 (Germany)

Medic:
AK74u (Ukraine) = G36k (Germany) [in my view the only real difference is which scope you like better]

Engineer:
TOZ-194 (Ukraine) < Benelli M4 (Germany)

Sniper:
SVD (Ukraine) > MSG90 (Germany) [this one needs to be fixed the MSG90 is a pile imho]

Support:
RPK ( Ukraine ) < MG-36 ( Germany )

Anti-Armor:
RPG-7V (Ukraine) > Panzerfaust3 (Germany)

Pick up anti-armor:
RPG-7V Tandem pick up (Ukraine) < Panzerfaust3T pick up (Germany) [the 40 rounds and the scope make a huge improvement]

Pick up anti-personal:
TBG-7V Thermobaric pick up (Ukraine) > Bunkerfaust 3 pick up (Germany) [I have to admit I don't have allot of exp with the bunker's mp7]

Good write-up. Personally I'd much rather have the Ukraine Spec-ops gun than the German weapon. The German support gun is nuts once you learn to compensate for the recoil.

[Lucky Shot]

Originally Posted by shakeyjake

Good write-up. Personally I'd much rather have the Ukraine Spec-ops gun than the German weapon. The German support gun is nuts once you learn to compensate for the recoil.

Agree... The Ukraine Spec Ops has no recoil and although it may not be the better weapon long range, it packs a punch in close. The German Support weapon is insanely accurate on single shot.

Lucky Shot

***edit***

Tonights Spies Like Us had my squad full of TG'ers and then not too many other TG'ers on our side. We set up a line north of the Watermill and for the most part was able to hold it successfully as we just gunned down out of control sprinters heading towards our flag. We were pushed back the most when the germans set up overwatch on the ridge in front of us, used smoke to move and used cover. If they had a couple more men, they would have broken through. The germans used the support weapon rarely, but when they did, it was used to great effect driving us back towards the flag. I do feel that this map falls to the Ukraine more often than not.

[Gman]

I was german on that map and suffered greatly trying to get to the watermill. It was made harder by the non-TG players who pushed right up to the UCB and shot us in the UCB itself.

I agree with the accuracy of the mg-36 on single shot. I picked off a guy that I could not see by shooting around the base of a tree I knew he was behind.

[jackmacokc]

I agree that sides are a bit lop-sided in PoE2, but I like it that way. (Maybe this is just another way of thinking about this) Unfair sides is more realistic.

Lets face it, in real life, theres usually a good side and a better side *cough* US *cough*. PoE seems to simulate that pretty accurate.

I personally feel a little more accomplishment out of winning in PoE2 on the side thats at a disadvantage because of that, which varies from map to map.

I think in general you get my drift. This may have been done on purpose is the bottom line.

[[TEC]Doct0r-Pwnage]

Originally Posted by jackmacokc

Lets face it, in real life, theres usually a good side and a better side

thats true its just that in real life the German side is about a trillion times better lol

but anyway I think the next patch should fix allot of stuff up I'm betting