Idea: Merging armor and infantry

[Vendi]

I like to come up with tactic ideas that could be fun and, if carried out right, very successful. Problem is, all too often it doesn't work out so easily in game.

This idea centers around combining the teamwork of armor and infantry. Yeah yeah seems simple to start with but let me give you a picture of what's going on right now: Players grab armor and go on single man killing sprees (Myself included), which usually end in the destruction of a valuable team asset. Meanwhile infantry teams are left on the ground to fend for themselves against overwhelming odds.
Alternatively, i've seen some cool full-armor squads work together well, but these mostly work for pushing the line between flags, and working in open-areas. They are not very successful at hopping on a flag and creating a new spawn point. They also do not have the versatility to get down into the cover areas and take out pesky enginners.


I really want to encourage squad leaders to work WITH vehicles. I'm not just talking about sending a squaddie back to grab a vehicle and use it till he blows up. I mean actively involve the piece of equipment in their tactics. Work to protect the vehicle, and use it to protect yourself. What is that saying? The whole is greater than the sum of the parts... something like that.
All too often the most a squad works with a vehicle consists of orders of "Move here and kill that, but dont go too far from us" or "Protect this flag". Trust me, you can do much better.


Just the other day on Suez Canal, my squad really incorporated a tank into its operations. We had three engineers, two assaults (me included) and a support man for ammunition and cover fire. One of the enginners hopped in the tank, and instead of working to single handedly destroy armor while the infantry moved in on enemy infantry alone, the two parts of the squad created, for the lack of a better term, a symbiotic relationship. Let me give you a few examples, each of which will illustrate a different benefit of the dichotomy (Right word?)...
When advancing, we used the tank as mobile cover. I mean, come on a 70 ton platform provides some serious protection. This allowed my squad to move across areas where we'd normally be mowed down. Advance on flags with minimal casualties, most of which were revivable. And when I say "used as cover" I mean literally we ran or sprinted behind/alongside it. I'm not talking about "cover fire" where the tank shells from behind as we run up in front. Using armor as physical cover, if i'm not mistaken, is a practice used in real life tactics especially in urban combat. I think we could learn a lesson here.
Once, an enemy jeep roared towards us. Upon spotting the tank, the crew bailed - fortunately for them of course, seeing as how moments later a shell plowed into the vehicle. Now, the infantry in the squad shone. Myself, the other medic and the support man went out and cleaned up the 3 engineers who popped out of the jeep. These guys could have done some serious damage to our armor.
Another instance, we were engaged by a battle walker. Being proficient in the walker, I know its advantage over the tank at close distances. When the battle started the infantry spread out of the way into nearby cover, close enough to watch what was going on but not in the way and causing unnecesary ticket loss. The tank and walker dueled, my engineers repaired and fired off the occasional rocket when the tank was at full health, the walker went down! Sure enough, during the battle us infantry in the squad had spotted some RDX recon making a move for the engineer and tank. We did them a favor and put them out of their misery.
Im not even going to try to describe how nice it was to assault a flag with my squad working like this...


Im hoping you can see some of the advantages now. Maybe all it takes is a different way of looking at armor, but some thoughtful minds could come up with incredible combinations.

[Eroak]

I couldn't agree more, but... I do already see this in place with TG squads. The TG SL's will let the squad know what he wants the Armor to do. Now on maps loaded with armor it's tougher because theres just to much going on with armor to conduct it. But the smaller maps where you only get a APC and a walker, They are critical and NEED to be played correctly to insure victory. Bommando and William were commanding 2 different rounds vs me and they kept the APC and walker on a tight leash and won the rounds. I think they only lost it a very few times. I always remind a squad to keep the APCs and Walkers back. Hopefully they listen.

[IMI-50AE]

Now that's bringing tactics to a whole new level! Very nice Vendi.

I usually pick up a vehicle on certain maps like Belgrade and Suez, so let me cover Belgrade. If we get the walker, I'll try to man it. Then, I almost spam the Sl with orders for the walker, going to great pains to use it effectively. If he says help the team take a flag, I'm there. Armor? On it. Protect? Patrolling, baby. No orders, or "Do what you think is best"? Okay, I'll sortie out and make quick passes at enemy flags to try to reduce pressure on our mates, or go vehicle-hunting, then pull back. Now sometimes this results in being EMP-spammed, but it's usually my own damn fault for that (or we could blame the rest of the team for not moving up and taking advantage of both my imposing firepower and powerful distraction potential to assualt the flag. Yeah, let's go with that). Also, if I'm supporting our vehicles and I'm not an AT kit, I'll go crazy on coms to warn the vehicle driver and SL. Not sure if it helps, but you gotta try.

Of course, the other thing is if your team has a large number of 'noobs', and oh, did I mention Bommando is the CO? Yeah, on Berlin he asked my squad (I was SL) to camp the PAC APC spawn, and we used that thing for the whole round, losing it maybe twice. Course, our retarded teammates weren't really listening to Bom when he wanted to make a killzone out of Roadblock, so he just dropped us supplies and said something along the lines of "Just do your own thing". I was trying to ID all possible threats to him and I think I went overboard, but if you're SL and manning a vehicle, keep your CO informed and he (hopefully) will do the same. Suez, EU, different day, buncha noobs on team screwing things up. DeadonAim is CO, I make a gunship squad with Orange (I think). Because we kept getting shot down, I asked for help. This is how much assistance our CO tried to give us: He directed all the other squads to spot the enemy gunships whenever they saw them, AND told them to destroy AA weapons on sight. Though we lost, I'm convinced that that kind of cooperation between CO and SL, and SL and SM, if enacted earlier (with less noobs and more TG), we would have won. So yeah, support your teammates in the vehicles, it counts.

My $0.02

[InfernoBLT11]

The idea of incorporating tanks, APCs and the squad has always been a nightmare when I'm doing squad leading. It works miracle when we have the EU Tiger or APCs. The PAC is not so hot in term of combined vehicular arms tactics. Their hover tanks are extremely unpredictable and make poor defensive platform or moving cover. So many time my squad got wasted by a strafing Neko, even though the tankers did their best to avoid FF.

Nekos are made for assault and they are great at that purpose in a group of two. One tank will attract enemy's attention when the other one deal damage. the Tigers on the other hand are ideal for defensive or troops supporting. In fact a Tiger in Verdun's church can pretty much lock that place down for good. It is suicidal for PAC tanks to attack the church since it has virtually no room to maneuver. Tiger has steady gun platform so you can do better sniping and shelling while engineer can keep the thing together. I personally feel much safer walking behind a Tiger since I don't get killed by a nudge from its sudden move. Also I preferred Tiger's lower machine gun, it is better to close in threats.

[experiment626]

Originally Posted by Eroak

I couldn't agree more, but... I do already see this in place with TG squads. The TG SL's will let the squad know what he wants the Armor to do. Now on maps loaded with armor it's tougher because theres just to much going on with armor to conduct it. But the smaller maps where you only get a APC and a walker, They are critical and NEED to be played correctly to insure victory. Bommando and William were commanding 2 different rounds vs me and they kept the APC and walker on a tight leash and won the rounds. I think they only lost it a very few times. I always remind a squad to keep the APCs and Walkers back. Hopefully they listen.

I have to agree with Eroak on his points. We do try and do this, with various degrees of success. But, sometimes the situation just gets beyond us and it is all we can do to ensure we have a competent tank gunner/walker pilot and hope he knows what to do when the defecant hits the rotating ventiliation module. I try and give my guys general guidlines, "Tank patrol the perimeter. Walker your sole responsibility is enemy tanks." The skilful combination of infantry and armor you experienced is beautiful when it happens. I personnaly would love to see that kind of teamwork all the time. But,...I think it would require the same troops, practising together as often as they could, to pull off that kind of combined arms operation. I do not want to discourage you in your pursuit, press on soldier, I just can't see how we can pull it off.

[Vendi]

I know I know, wishful thinking. Maybe I should've just posted this in the After Action Reports forum... but I was hoping to maybe get people involved in this, even if its just taking an extra interest in working together. Or, possibly if anyone has good ideas on how to utilize the tanks (and walker/apc) perhaps they could share.
I agree about the difference between the pac and eu tanks. I'm horrible with the neko, I can't deal with the turret changing elevation as the tank moves over different terrain - this is especially a problem for someone who moves around as much as I do.

[Eroak]

Originally Posted by IMI-50AE

DeadonAim is CO, I make a gunship squad with Orange (I think). Because we kept getting shot down, I asked for help. This is how much assistance our CO tried to give us: He directed all the other squads to spot the enemy gunships whenever they saw them, AND told them to destroy AA weapons on sight. Though we lost, I'm convinced that that kind of cooperation between CO and SL, and SL and SM, if enacted earlier (with less noobs and more TG), we would have won. So yeah, support your teammates in the vehicles, it counts.

Wow! I always take advange of a gunship squad. Now that is taking it to another level.

[experiment626]

Originally Posted by Vendi

I know I know, wishful thinking. Maybe I should've just posted this in the After Action Reports forum... but I was hoping to maybe get people involved in this, even if its just taking an extra interest in working together. Or, possibly if anyone has good ideas on how to utilize the tanks (and walker/apc) perhaps they could share.
I agree about the difference between the pac and eu tanks. I'm horrible with the neko, I can't deal with the turret changing elevation as the tank moves over different terrain - this is especially a problem for someone who moves around as much as I do.

I'm all for it Vendi, your mechanized infantry idea is not impossible, just difficult. Fortunatley for you I thrive on difficulty, if your serious about working on this, then let's pin down a date and time were we can hash out the basics, sort of lay the groundwork. This goes for anyone else who wants to specialize in MI. I propose this Saturday evening sometime we rally on Teamspeak and use the deserted Titan server for an hour or so and flesh out the concept.

[DeadOnAim]

I think this is a great idea and discussion vendi.

I have been thinking and there are a few different tactics I would like to try out. Also, kit unlocks will have alot to do with how effective I think a squad can be. If you have the advanced med hub and advanced ammo hub and say you had any two pieces of armor such as two tanks, tank and apc etc. this is how I think it would work out best.

6 person squad: 2 engineers, one each driving/operating and keeping the two pieces close together to auto repair one another. It also gives more than one target for anti-armor soldiers/assets. One medic in one gunner seat to heal the two infantry that will be left on foot. One support to keep everyone up on ammo. The two infantry could be the squad leader with the recon drone and either another medic to keep him up or say a recon soldier. If the second is anything other than a medic the medic in the gunner pos. in the armor would have to keep in mind he will have to place priority on the SL so he can be revived, OR the second infantryman should grab the SL's medic kit to revive him (but would take an extra couple of seconds). This would allow anyone that got taken out to spawn on him no prob and resume in the gunner positions or in the case one of the armor pieces are taken out, spawn with the appropriate kit (engineer probably) to keep up the remaining piece.

I think this would allow the squad to enjoy all the benefits of each kit to the fullest while also utilizing the Net Bat system to identify and take out enemies.

I would really like to get together with some of you and try this all out. I will try to think of other scenarios with just one piece of armor or three pieces, and will post some more thoughts later.

[experiment626]

Originally Posted by DeadOnAim

I would really like to get together with some of you and try this all out. I will try to think of other scenarios with just one piece of armor or three pieces, and will post some more thoughts later.

See my post above.

[DeadOnAim]

Sorry experiment, didn't see that. I am in. I will jump on TS as soon as I get back from you know what tommorow evening.

[Vendi]

I'm glad to see some enthusiasm. I've got most of tomorrow evening free but I do have a friend coming over (to play videogames no less. I was planning on teaching him BF2142 and in return getting some time to play Rainbow 6:Las Vegas on his 360). I have no doubt he'd be interested in the idea as well once he gets the basics of the game down. Other than that the only thing that could get in the way is if the girlfriend calls... =/
Ill try to clear up some 2142 only time though, let me post up tomorrow.

I've got ideas for both single tank and dual tank MI. I'd reccomend not filling in the second (gunner) slots on the tanks. This places too many people in the armor and takes away the "infantry" part of MI. Without the extra feet on the ground, its more difficult to make assaults on flags, flush out enemies in cover, and takes away from the overall versatility of the squad. Besides, I find the turrets to be difficult firing platforms with the armor moving around.
Its still an idea I think's worth trying, dead. It would be especially efficient in a trained squad.

[WarV]

I see the tanks in BF2142 as more for artillery pieces instead of like the tanks in the old BF games. While on smaller maps they can't be used as much like this, on larger maps I think they should stay back and help out with more ranged attacks. With the opinion of coming in if needed.

The Walker pretty much is the new tank in my eye. Also the APC can be both, like the tank and walker, on some maps, but on most its more like a moving weapon platform with all its guns, rockets, and EMP.

[djfarmer]

Vendi,

Your idea is tactically sound. You would want one more support person with each one providing flanking cover and recon personnel providing over watch (anti-snipers and to take out engineers as they make themselves known.)

You would also want more than one tank (3 if possible) with each covering a certain kill area (9-12, 12-3 and one rear guard. A few FAV and or APC (2).

Ideally you would want air cover available also.

On a different subject since I (Dragon Kinjite) have had the pleasure of playing a few scenarioes with you (Dragon Kinjite) - how do I set up voice capability? It would be nice to be able to use it which would make for better unit cohesion.

Look forward to your reply and to seeing on the server.

Originally Posted by Vendi

I like to come up with tactic ideas that could be fun and, if carried out right, very successful. Problem is, all too often it doesn't work out so easily in game.

This idea centers around combining the teamwork of armor and infantry. Yeah yeah seems simple to start with but let me give you a picture of what's going on right now: Players grab armor and go on single man killing sprees (Myself included), which usually end in the destruction of a valuable team asset. Meanwhile infantry teams are left on the ground to fend for themselves against overwhelming odds.
Alternatively, i've seen some cool full-armor squads work together well, but these mostly work for pushing the line between flags, and working in open-areas. They are not very successful at hopping on a flag and creating a new spawn point. They also do not have the versatility to get down into the cover areas and take out pesky enginners.


I really want to encourage squad leaders to work WITH vehicles. I'm not just talking about sending a squaddie back to grab a vehicle and use it till he blows up. I mean actively involve the piece of equipment in their tactics. Work to protect the vehicle, and use it to protect yourself. What is that saying? The whole is greater than the sum of the parts... something like that.
All too often the most a squad works with a vehicle consists of orders of "Move here and kill that, but dont go too far from us" or "Protect this flag". Trust me, you can do much better.


Just the other day on Suez Canal, my squad really incorporated a tank into its operations. We had three engineers, two assaults (me included) and a support man for ammunition and cover fire. One of the enginners hopped in the tank, and instead of working to single handedly destroy armor while the infantry moved in on enemy infantry alone, the two parts of the squad created, for the lack of a better term, a symbiotic relationship. Let me give you a few examples, each of which will illustrate a different benefit of the dichotomy (Right word?)...
When advancing, we used the tank as mobile cover. I mean, come on a 70 ton platform provides some serious protection. This allowed my squad to move across areas where we'd normally be mowed down. Advance on flags with minimal casualties, most of which were revivable. And when I say "used as cover" I mean literally we ran or sprinted behind/alongside it. I'm not talking about "cover fire" where the tank shells from behind as we run up in front. Using armor as physical cover, if i'm not mistaken, is a practice used in real life tactics especially in urban combat. I think we could learn a lesson here.
Once, an enemy jeep roared towards us. Upon spotting the tank, the crew bailed - fortunately for them of course, seeing as how moments later a shell plowed into the vehicle. Now, the infantry in the squad shone. Myself, the other medic and the support man went out and cleaned up the 3 engineers who popped out of the jeep. These guys could have done some serious damage to our armor.
Another instance, we were engaged by a battle walker. Being proficient in the walker, I know its advantage over the tank at close distances. When the battle started the infantry spread out of the way into nearby cover, close enough to watch what was going on but not in the way and causing unnecesary ticket loss. The tank and walker dueled, my engineers repaired and fired off the occasional rocket when the tank was at full health, the walker went down! Sure enough, during the battle us infantry in the squad had spotted some RDX recon making a move for the engineer and tank. We did them a favor and put them out of their misery.
Im not even going to try to describe how nice it was to assault a flag with my squad working like this...


Im hoping you can see some of the advantages now. Maybe all it takes is a different way of looking at armor, but some thoughtful minds could come up with incredible combinations.

[experiment626]

Originally Posted by djfarmer

Vendi,

Your idea is tactically sound. You would want one more support person with each one providing flanking cover and recon personnel providing over watch (anti-snipers and to take out engineers as they make themselves known.)

You would also want more than one tank (3 if possible) with each covering a certain kill area (9-12, 12-3 and one rear guard. A few FAV and or APC (2).

Ideally you would want air cover available also.

On a different subject since I (Dragon Kinjite) have had the pleasure of playing a few scenarioes with you (Dragon Kinjite) - how do I set up voice capability? It would be nice to be able to use it which would make for better unit cohesion.

Look forward to your reply and to seeing on the server.

I would start with making sure your volume controls are not muted in windows sound control panel. Then run the audio setup under the program files in 2142, I think it is called VOIP setup. I would also encourage you to download and install Teamspeak, as most of TG uses that to report violations and get support. THe settings are listed in the SOP. Last thing, PLEASE read our rules and SOPs, i would hate to kick you after you just found the place