TG Squads and Team Balance

[Santa]

There are two issues that have hurt the POE2 server since its inception. First issue is 6 man squads full of TG tagged players (By TG tagged, i mean any regulars. TOC and others that frequent the server count), and second is team balance.

Most people would think that a squad of 6 TGers is great. The teamwork is top notch and the squad does a lot of good. But when you are in one of those squads, look at the layout of the rest of the squads. Hardly anyone with a TG tag in any of them, they are scattered everywhere, and its just generally unorganized. So not only is the battle not going well wherever the TG squad isn't, but those new players aren't getting a good experience. They rightfully think its a teamworkless server because they don't have any direction in their squads.

So heres my proposal. Every night, keep squads to 3 regulars max. If a 4th joins, just tell him to join another squad and explain what you are doing. A squad of 3 regulars and 3 randoms can still be very effective. You have enough leverage in the squad to get everyone working together, and it may make a lot of new players become lasting regulars. If they refuse to follow orders, warn them about it several times and then get an admin. Do this at the beginning of the night, too. Get TG players SLing quickly. If we spread ourselves out at the beginning of the night and try to keep it that way, you will see better gameplay very quickly and will not have to ask yourself "What is the rest of our team doing?" quite so much. However, I don't see a problem with in house squads forming up from time to time because otherwise theres no reason to have them. Just don't make it a nightly thing.

The second issue is team balance. Whenever a team absolutely dominates the other, often TG players will switch sides in an effort to even it up. Thats great and well intentioned, but all too often every TG player that made the original team dominate, switches sides and then its imbalanced the other way around. This has not made anything better, and since one side is saturated with TG players, the other side has a lot of directionless squads. Admittedly, im equally at fault as everyone else. I switch to make it even, and then its just worse the other way around because so many others switched too. This problem is all the more evident now that we have more time before rounds. I have actually had to end two rounds early this week because of domination, and i usually only had to do that once every 3 or so months.

So to prevent this, first look at what map is loading. If the German team was dominate and Spies Like Us is loading, don't switch teams. The German side is at a huge disadvantage in that map and the Ukraines don't need any help. If an even map is playing, first look at the team layouts. Look to see how many players on your team have already switched, and see how many regulars are on each side. Then make a judgment call to see if you should stay or switch.

So to end with, lets really try to make an effort to correct both of these issues. A lot of times someone starts a thread like this, we follow it for a week, and then we stop for one reason or another. Lets keep this up for a long time, because it will really help the server in the long run.

[icky]

Good post Santa.

Another good reason for controlling the TG content of squads is to keep the game fun for new TG players who join. I'm sure everyone has by now had the experience of joining the server only to find 2 full functional squads and a bunch of random squads. Joining one of those squads is your only option, but it is usually unpleasant on your own. If the regulars are spread more evenly, it is much less likely that you will be stuck on your own with 3 voipless newbies (I mean this without offense, as I was once one myself).

But with all of this said, I respect the right of everyone to form up with 6 buddies some of the time. I very much enjoy a full 7th squad, and I'm sure the other in-house squads feel the same. Do so in moderation and we should be ok.

[Anvil]

Good idea,I often start a new squad to set up some defense.Usally I can get the squad to stay for a while,but then someone wants to start running around.Then more will follow them.So either I kick squad members for not following orders,or get more forceful on voip.I have found that if you constantly tell the squad why you are defending they usally listen.
I really like having TGer's in my squad,but they rarely stay long enough.Most of the time I see them joining a squad full of TGer's.I fully understand wanting to play with your pals,but sometimes for the sake of the game it's not always the best tactic.
.:CB:.ANVIL

[BigGaayAl]

Another approach which could work is to hold no more flags then is needed for bleed.

This automatically gives the other team a chance to organise and strike back. By continuously pushing the attack, the opfor will be more and more disorganised, squads disintegrate, players start to leave.

Imo this is a much simpler approach then Santa's suggestion, but I fear it is much harder to execute. Even many TG players dislike defending a lead.

Holding a bleed is a much harder way to win, you don't get to spawnrape legally, the enemy has time, and it will be hard to push off an all out rush on one flag.
Bottom line for me is, restraint might do more for the quality of the game than switching good players.

I Just wanted to add another possible approach to the discussion.

[E0_]

One of the reasons I like being a part of TG is being in squads with other TGers. We have talked about this problem in the 5th and decided that some nights we will try to spread out and have squads with just a few TGers, but on some nights we will load up the squads with all TGers and have at it. I think this is a better solution than saying we shouldn't ever have a night with six TGers in a squad. (And I understand that is not exactly what you said, Santa.)

I absolutely agree with the issue of team balance. I do my best to balance things out by going on the side that is winning, thus reducing their chances. Just kidding, usually I just go where ever the server puts me to start then try to even things out as I get the feel of whether the teams or balanced or not.

[pjaronex]

I would be careful not to go to far in the other direction because being in an inhouse squad has greatly improved our organization and team play skills as well as our squad level tactics and execution. These are some of the very qualities that make the Tactical gamer community what it is. So I see a great value in the inhouse squads but I agree that we dont need to squad up to the point that it makes the situation worse not better.

[WhiskeySix]

Originally Posted by Santa

A squad of 3 regulars and 3 randoms can still be very effective. You have enough leverage in the squad to get everyone working together, and it may make a lot of new players become lasting regulars.

This is so true. If you've got two other guys in the squad that you can rely on, this is often just as good as if you've got a squad full of TGers. For those unfamiliar with TG, I think the main barriers to team work are A) breaking the ice with VOIP (many aren't used to using it) and B) understanding what level of teamwork is expected in a squad (many aren't used to using it). All you need is one or two other TG's in the squad to get through both of these barriers... They hear everyone using VOIP (most importantly what things are said and when)... and before long, 'speaking' replaces 'silence' as "normal" and they fall in line. Same with the teamwork - you get three guys immediately reacting to a "move here" order and then moving together as a unit - well it doesn't take long for the other guys see how it's done....


Last night Sawviper and I had a squad of 4 non-regulars and had a blast.. In the first round I had to be a little verbose ("c'mon guys, lets go, disengage - stop shooting and move to the way point") as SL, but they figured it out quick. Saw was also helpful as a second voice of teamwork... occasionally pitching in things like "Get the squadleader back up" or "come on guys, lets move out"....


The other thing that's worth noting is that teaming up with some unknowns can actually improve the quality of the game. You're K/D might not be as good as when you squad up with a bunch of TG ringers, but a higher K/D doesn't always = more fun. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about... those rounds where you know how the round is going to go before the first bullet is ever fired? Where you end up dominating without too much drama. On the other hand, when you've got a couple of unknowns in your squad and you stave off repeated assaults on your flag... or make a nice flanking attack on a back flag or whatever... THAT is satisfying - especially when you know the new folks are really getting into it.

Originally Posted by icky

But with all of this said, I respect the right of everyone to form up with 6 buddies some of the time. I very much enjoy a full 7th squad, and I'm sure the other in-house squads feel the same. Do so in moderation and we should be ok.

Exactly If you get best squad with double the score of the other team's best squad, something's very wrong and it's time to spread the love

[John CANavar]

Just like mentioned in this and related past threads, the optimum solution to the problem is to choose 1 or 2 nights of the week as official meeting session(s) for your in-house squad.

As an in-house unit, you have the right to develop your squad level tactics/skills and the only way to do that is to play together.

By mixing with and guiding the non-TG players for the rest of the week, you will be doing a big community service. If it were only in-house squads playing on TG, our server would never fill.

Santa and others summarized it very well. Moderation and balance.

And mixing works. Especially if you get the help of your unit members or TG guys in the squad. Dont leave everything to SL. There are so many things a SL needs to work on. Help him. When SL gives an order and one of the new guys is not following orders, just say something like "Hey Bob, SL ordered us to move to marker, c'mon buddy, lets go".

[icky]

We had two good nights of spread-out squads this week. I want to thank everyone who made the effort for this to happen. I think it pays of for all of us. Heck, last night the server population not only survived Highway to Hell, but it GREW, finishing with a full server beyond 1AM EST!

[jaymind]

Just as an aside...Last week I was squad leading with no TG members in my squad with a few regulars and the play was outstanding. The guys I have never seen or played with before were on the ball and loving it.

Through 4 rounds we took top squad twice and met all of the objectives I set out for the squad - the guys were fantastic.

I fall into the trap of playing with all TG squads to often, but this just goes to show that a lot of these "unknowns" on the server end up loving the discipline of a well lead squad and respond really well.

[thebleakaffinity]

I was in Santa's squad last night and we had great luck with this. The teamwork of the three new faces was pretty much seamless, as was their adapting to the 7th's off-kilter sense of humor. Plenty of dirty jokes all night.

[thebleakaffinity]

Well, tonight was just more of the same, with all the usual offenders forming up together on the Ukranian team, leaving a bunch of random squads fumbling around on the German side. I just don't think we're ever going to be able to change this, as there have been many of these posts before and still night after night it stays the same.

EDIT: And then, as expected, the entire in house squad switched to the German team and made the teams unbalanced yet again. Hurrrrrr.

[jmaker]

German side was pretty leveled out tonight. We had at most 3 TG'ers in a squad at a given time. It was either Beatnik or Icky who told us to break up our full TG squad on Dnipro. But then we got raped on Spies.

[Santa]

There has been some response to this, but your right that for the majority of the players, not much has changed. My team--for the most part--seemed very good at spreading out though.

I led and joined several squads with new people ive never seen. Two of them, revolution and muxley (i think thats his name) did a great job squad leading. Ya just gotta give these new guys a chance. Join their squad, try to coax them into giving orders and what not, and youll be surprised at the results. We were very good at this when BF2 first came out. I mean, why the hell else would anyone join a squad led by "Cream-of-Santa"? If you come across someone that refuses to give orders or wont follow them, warn them first. Then get a hold of an admin, notify said admin that you already warned them, and im sure theyll be swiftly kicked.

Some other notable people that helped out were mantis, who didnt even have a single TGer in his squad and yet he took best squad two times in a row. Sawviper spread the love as well. It just takes an honest effort really.

[thebleakaffinity]

The maps I was referring to were Rivne and Berezne, I can't really say one way or another how things went on the maps before.