Going Support? Consider Medic

[Zoraster]

Just a little note... don't overdo the supports in a squad. Usually, just one support will suffice, but there are occasions where having two is a good idea. I don't think there's a situation where more than two is necessary.

People are pretty quick to jump on it if there are more than one recon in a squad because it's a kit that doesn't have any obvious team benefits. The netbat effect only requires one recon, and APMs are useful but usually having four instead of two deployed isn't going to make a huge difference for a squad. In other words, people are quick to realize that when there's more than one recon, someone is being selfish and not helping the squad.

But the same is true of supports. It's less obvious, so people are slow to realize it, but having more than two is unnecessary and counterproductive. Yes, they provide supplies quickly, but how many more supplies can three or four supply guys give than just two? How much do three or four sentry guns do than two? The answer is not a lot more.

Compare this to the added advantage medics give:
1) Each additional medic provides another person to revive a fallen body (adding an extra ticket) that might not have been gotten to due to distance or time.

2) Each additional medic makes it less likely a squad will be completely wiped out. If you only have one medic and he dies, there are at least 15 seconds where there is nobody to revive fallen teammates. If you have two you've greatly increased the odds one will be up at all times (they can revive each other), but think of all the times a nade takes out two people. If you add three, it makes it even harder. Four, even harder.

3) Each additional medic can increase the health regeneration of a squad. Health is something that in this game needs replinishing far more frequently than supplies. Having multiple people with med boxes in a squad can mean greater health regeneration.

Anyway, this is just preaching to the choir, but i've found it frustrating lately to be in squads with four supply people only to have them get mad when they don't get a revive. This is obviously more tailored toward infantry maps... the supply problem isn't usually so great on armor maps.

[Tempus]

Excellent points Zoraster. I agree completely.

[Zoopy_T]

Yup, there is either no Supprts in your squad or more then three supports.

I think the same can be said with Engineers on vehicle maps (Verdun, Sidi, etc). Most of the time you squad fills up with engineers and you lack medics to keep your squad up and running. So no more then 2-3 engineers on vehicle. You should always have at least 2-3 medics.

[Acid]

Well, engi/support combos are quite effective, but no more than 2 is a great rule. Even on vehicle heavy maps:

2 Engi
2 Support
1 Medic
1 Recon / Medic (SL)

The support/engi combo can be very effective in taking out vehicles and infantry when working as a fireteam. For heavy vehicles: Support drops ammo pack, then starts lobbing EMP's at the tank, keeping it paralized while the Engi can unload all 5 AV rockets/railgun ammo into the vehicle, distroying it. The support's EMP's resupply very quickly and you can keep up a constant lob by waiting half a second after each impact of the nade. For infantry: support can drop their IPS and an ammo crate and keep the enemy's heads down with MG fire while the engineer lobs in a few nades and can then flank around and make short work of infantry in CQB with their SMG.

[Zoopy_T]

Originally Posted by Acid

Well, engi/support combos are quite effective, but no more than 2 is a great rule. Even on vehicle heavy maps:

2 Engi
2 Support
1 Medic
1 Recon / Medic (SL)

I would have to disagree for city maps. The best set up for any city map is

4 Medics
1 Support
1 Eng/Recon (whatever the situation calls for).

The most sucessful teams I have ever been a part of, there was at least 3-4 medics. This makes it so that you have to preaty much have to wipe out the whole squad to get rid of them. Revives are the most important thing in conquest.

Now if this were titan, I would go with Acid's squad layout above.

[Lorax74]

Originally Posted by Zoopy_T

I would have to disagree for city maps. The best set up for any city map is

4 Medics
1 Support
1 Eng/Recon (whatever the situation calls for).

The most sucessful teams I have ever been a part of, there was at least 3-4 medics. This makes it so that you have to preaty much have to wipe out the whole squad to get rid of them. Revives are the most important thing in conquest.

Now if this were titan, I would go with Acid's squad layout above.

I would agree with this layout as well.

[Sir_Brass]

Originally Posted by Zoopy_T

I would have to disagree for city maps. The best set up for any city map is

4 Medics
1 Support
1 Eng/Recon (whatever the situation calls for).

The most sucessful teams I have ever been a part of, there was at least 3-4 medics. This makes it so that you have to preaty much have to wipe out the whole squad to get rid of them. Revives are the most important thing in conquest.

Now if this were titan, I would go with Acid's squad layout above.

THis is best for infantry-heavy maps. The 2 eng/supp fireteam is good for the vehicle-heavy maps.

[DirtyLude]

I would go so far to say that 2 support is too much. I like playing support, but I always check the squad layout first and if someone is already support, which is almost always, I go with the standard assault/medic.

[Zoraster]

agreed dirty although there are circumstances where two is helpful. In defense having two support people can be useful. I don't think having an additional support guy on a vehicle map is really necessary though. Having an additional engineer is just as, and probably more, helpful as having a 2/2 split.

[negativeshade]

3 medics-2 Baurs and 1 Voss
1 support
2 recon (good for taking out walkers with demo packs and APMs come in handy when you are defending on the top of a building)

[Zoraster]

well, i'm not sure that kind of micromanagement is necessary (2 baur and one voss), but i definitely don't agree that 2 recons is a good idea. APMs are useful as are demopacks, but an engineer is far more versatile and effective against walkers and other armor.

anyway, my original point wasn't really on how to exactly get the right composition of a squad. To some degree, your squad members' specialties will help decide that. I was merely pointing out that as vigilant squad members, we should try and limit supports to 1 and at max 2 per squad.

[negativeshade]

True. During an intense game, it is almost 100% that you will die before you ran of your ammo.(In another word, support unit is good to have, but not too many.)

engi unit
1.rockets(even the Unlock eng weapon) can't kill a healthy walker in one shot which leaves breathing room for that walker to escape and come back later.
2.motion mines is only deadly when an inexperienced player is using a walker.
recon unit
1.sniper rifle can really be a problem for advancing enemy troops
2.demopacks can kill instantly

[Zoraster]

Well, i wouldn't say that's 100%. With revives, it's typical for me to run out of supplies if i'm left without someone doing something. Regardless, it doesn't help to have many suppliers.

Anyway, i really do have to disagree with this.

1) one shot CAN kill a healthy walker if it's in the right place. If you've gotten close enough to slap on RDX and pull the trigger, you almost certainly got close enough to hit the walker in the sweet spot.

2) i've killed plenty of experienced people with motion mines in a walker and other armor. The motion mines themselves aren't always deadly, but motion mines often work like a spider's web. If you place the motion mines right, the walker won't notice them until it's too late. He may stop walking, but at this point he's a sitting duck for the engineer's weapon, a rail gun, etc.

Furthermore, motion mines work as road blocks. Most of the maps where it'd be a question of an extra recon vs. an engineer, any armor on the map has to go through choke points. if you put motion mines up, they can't get through or they'll die.

3) Sniper rifles can be deadly, but generally speaking a sniper rifle isn't that effective as a squad member. They tend to pale in comparison to a medic with rockets. Ask any of the well respected Squad Leaders on here whether they'd rather a sniper or a medic with rockets, and I'll bet you ten dollars that answer is going to come back rockets.

4) Sure, demopacks can, and i don't mean to say they're useless, but they require vigilance to get a kill. If you put them on the ground as a trap, you need to continually watch them. If you're trying to put them on armor, you have to sneak up, put it on, get away and pull the trigger. This works plenty of times, but in general i'd much prefer the leave and forget nature of motion mines.

[DirtyLude]

Originally Posted by Zoraster

agreed dirty although there are circumstances where two is helpful.

Granted, there are definitely situations that call for different loadouts, for example, defending crossroad in berlin at the start of the round. I was a little too all encompassing.

I always run out of ammo. Obviously rockets are the worst. If I had unlimited rockets, it would be crazy. Baur can be tough, too. You don't want to be caught with half a clip in the Baur in CQ, so I'm constantly reloading with that weapon. Support is a necessary roll, that's for sure, and I'll save it for another discussion, but I would rather have 2 support than 2 recon in general flag assault/defense.

[Zoraster]

me too, dirty. i can think of few times where 2 recons makes sense. i think most of the time having 1 recon can be beneficial for the netbat benefit, but 2 is too many.