Nascar

[ProjectNA]

A few months ago, I ran over a couple of people in a jeep on the way to a flag, and someone said something like "ban Project, he's running over people again". Pretty sure it was the first time that night (maybe I made two big circles : ), but since then I have been very sensitive and have driven around enemies or stopped and tried to shoot it out.

Well, I faced a moral dilemma the other night (Friday, I think), and was curious how people viewed it. It was the map with the snow and the bridge in the middle and the Radar station and the island. I was driving a car with one other passenger from East Bridge to the flag with the Musollini looking guy statue. I was driving over hill and dale, and came upon an alley, and there was a whole squad of 5 or 6 people just walking towards me in the alley. So what do I do? I veer away from the people, slam into a wall, and jump out to try and shoot it out. I was killed, I am sure my passenger was killed, and I probably looked like an idiot.

Last night the admins were continously warning people with "this isn't NASCAR". I even saw a guy taking out enemies with a divebombing transport helo.

What should I have done in the alley? What are the unwritten rules on vehicles?

[WhiskeySix]

If you're driving A->B and come across someone playing in the street, then by all means... teach them what their mama didn't.


On the other hand, if you grab a jeep with the intention on running people over, thennnn you'll get the stink eye.

[Lucky Shot]

I just had this discussion with someone else over driving Jeep use and how it is interpreted. I was considering raising this topic and am glad someone else beat me to it. This link is to a thread discussing how Suicide Tactics is interpreted at TG

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...=suicide+jeeps

Jeeps are to be used as transportation and if it has a gun on the top then it can be used as a battle platform. No standing army in the world uses their jeeps as a bumper car to drive over the enemy. It is considered to be a Suicide Tactic to strap C4 Explosives on the front of a jeep and driving it into a tank. The proper use of a Chopper is not to intentionally crash it into a tank. If you see people misusing jeeps, choppers, etc.. please let an admin know so that we can deal with it.

Lucky Shot

[Braidedheadman]

Intersting.

Hmmm.... I have a question. I haven't read the whole artical yet and perhaps what I have to say has already been addressed. But so far, Icky's comments in the other thread appear to address the act, but not the intention in every circumstance, C4 Jihad jeeping aside.

Suppose that, in transporting a squad to an enemy controlled CP, the driver decides to run distraction against the defenders (ie: driving like a mad man in and amongst or around the enemy) in an attempt to draw their fire, relying on what (little) protection some jeeps offer against small arms plus their high rate of speed to make a quick getaway, while the rest of the squad moves in? Would this be considered an inappropriate use of the vehicle or, indeed, a suicide tactic not sanctioned by TG?

[Lucky Shot]

Read through the link I provided. I think Icky and Bommando answered it perfectly in posts 7, 8 and 11.

Lucky Shot

[Braidedheadman]

I just finished.

Two points that I felt stood out and dealt somewhat with the situation I described are:

• ... includes driving a jeep deep into enemy territory with the goal of running over infantry
• ... lone soldier doesn't drive in circles around an enemy base trying to run people over in the middle of a firefight

But again, they do not address the intent that I alluded to above.

First, let me just say that in no way do I advocate C4 Jihadism in BF2 or even running jeeps through camps like it were some kind of battering ram. None of these things are realistic in any way, as was pointed out in the thread you linked to.

However, and perhaps I should have made my post a little more clear, would a diversionary tactic also be considered a suicide tactic under TG's house rules? Or if the intention is to draw enemy fire/attention away from the (more vulnerable) infantry moving in, hopefully under stealth, and then make a quick getaway, has the driver not accomplished a goal other than that of simply running enemy infantry over, possibly at the cost of his own ticket? If a soldier or two happens to fall under the treads, so be it. In this instance, the driver's intent would be to use the vehicle for cover while (hopefully) preserving the lives of his squad mates without sacrificing himself in anyway.

Also consider the number of times, while playing BF2, any of us have even heard a jeep approaching, looked to the direction that it is coming from until it can be spotted, and possibly noted whether or not it was a single occupant or carrying +X passengers. The value as a distraction that a jeep presents cannot be overstated and is possibly as effective at diverting enemy eyes away from the real threat as popping smoke is, except that it is not static and therefore not a dead give away.

For perspective, the science of "thrust and feign" has long been a part of combat tactics. For many thousands of years in fact, both at the level of the individual combatant, which a quick study of swordplay from any one of a variety of cultures will reveal, and with armies collectively. Presenting an opening whereby the enemy perceives a weakness and attacks, only for the aggressor/defender to follow up with and deal him a killing blow as the bait is taken lies at the very foundation of all good tactics.

A few quotes from Sun Tzu's treatise on, "The Art of War," (circa the 6th century BC):

• In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack - the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers. The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn. It is like moving in a circle - you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities of their combination?
  
• The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
  
• All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
  
• So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak.

Again, in no uncertain terms do I advocate C4 jeeping or other suicide tactics in anyway. A ticket so frivolously lost, even if it results in more deaths than a 1:1 ratio for the Jihadist, is a ticket handed toward the enemy's victory and simply isn’t realistic. On a more personally note, I think it shows a great deal of callousness toward those who have lost real family members to real terrorist/suicide tactics such as these and is most distasteful.

I just think that jeeps and the like have more uses other than pure transportation, ditched near some tree out in the boonies once it has served that purpose.

[Lucky Shot]

And he isn't using the vehicle to drive people over, or ramming his jeep into people/vehicles? Because that is the nature of this thread. I don't have a problem with a pied piper leading infantry away from their defense. I would question how effective this would ever be and do think that there are far better ways to deceive and trick the enemy.

Lucky Shot

[Braidedheadman]

It's merely a distraction where mere seconds on any battlefield count. Neither was I trying to address how effective (how susceptible one person is to this type of distraction over the next) this type of tactic would be, except to say that it is an option, nor justify individual practice or deviation when employing it thus. I only mean to point out that Jeep ramming, apart from C4 Jeeping, is not nearly as black and white as, "Oh noes! That dude ran over me! OMG Banz0r him!" which ProjectNA might have come under fire for. The dichotomy between either transportation from A to B as a legit use or Jihadism as inappropriate is perhaps not so easy to define.

[icky]

I find it EXTREMELY EASY to distinguish between proper and improper use of the jeeps. I don't know why anyone who has played the game would find it difficult.

If you are certain that you are using the vehicle in a way that is within the rules, then don't worry about comments people make. It isn't uncommon for players who are upset to misinterpret the rules or claim offenses that didn't occur. If it's an admin making the comment, though, you should figure out why it was wrong before you get tossed off of the server.

The answer to the question of running into the full squad in the alley is to run 'em down. You will probably die, but it's death either way at that point. However, if you circle around and make a second run at that alley to pick up stragglers, you are breaking our rules. Personally, I wouldn't be in the vehicle that close to the flag. There's just too much chance that you'll run into a squad... or a mine...

[Braidedheadman]

Indeed. And that really is the heart of it isn't it? If the driver has 180'd the jeep for another round of bumper burgers, his intent is clear. But surely circling the base a couple of times in a wide arc, making lots of noise in the process, is not the same thing even if a few are foolish enough to stand in the way?

For my part, being new here, the bottom line is that I have both seen and used this tactic in the field once in a while. And while I don’t normally give it much thought, either when behind the wheel or riding the bumper, with this thread, I just wanted to know how flexible the jeep ramming rules are when it comes to this sort of thing. Or do I need to worry about getting behind the wheel and risking a boot/ban for my troubles because someone had a bad day.

[icky]

We are more than generous when it comes to giving warnings for things such as this. If you pay attention to the warnings and kicks other people are getting on a nightly basis, you will see it.

[ProjectNA]

Guys, thanks for the feedback. At least for my original question, it has been answered. The time the word "banned" came up was a TG player who I have squadded with and have the utmost respect for, and I think that night I ended up making two circles, I think because the flag I was headed for was out of danger and I changed destinations. From the previously mentioned players perspective, he saw me twice, and thus assumed my intention was "unethical". This was on Orel, so its hard not to hit someone when driving near Church.

As some stated in this thread, for the alley, I was headed to a flag, they were in the way, I should have gone jeep bowling. As long as its on the way, and I don't make "adjustments" to take out other players, I will feel OK with myself.

[MakrsMark]

Originally Posted by ProjectNA

I will feel OK with myself.

You're good enough, you're smart enough, and dog gonnit, people like you!