Discussion: Spawn Areas

[nulloperations]

This is a big problem on this mod. Often, the place you just captured becomes your spawn area. Often, the place you need to capture is on top of or is in visible sight of the opfor spawn. Because of this, sometimes you'll get a spawn wave right after a capture, and have a ton of people get mowed down in the middle of a fire fight. But, these are events that can't be avoided however I'm noticing a nasty trend in the TG server: Spawn Camping

I've seen a few of our members do so. Stay after an objective is captured and keep killing spawners. Move ahead to an old point and mow people down. I think of a certain push map... Yes, there are times to flank, times to move around, but this is the department of the attacking team, not the defenders. When the server is full, 9v9, okay, send out a small team to cause some havoc, but when it's even teams of 6v6 or less, defenders need to be near their defense objectives. If you're off "guarding the side road" be closer to the objective you need to defend, not down by the bend in the road. That's not helping your team when the attackers reach the objective from another route.

There's other push map problems too, namely when the attackers have to advance and there's two routes, one through a street, and the other through the enemy spawn (which, oddly, is usually closer to the attacking team's base than the objective is to the attackers). What do we do in those situations when the enemy has the other route blocked out? Do we avoid the enemy spawn to avoid spawn killing, or do we use that route to our advantage?

These are some issues that are going to come up the more we play this mod and refine the rules. Spawns are really tricky in this game and the normal TG standard isn't going to cover all situations.

[Gillespie]

Absolutely agree.

When I first played the game, I was shocked to discover players spawncamping on the TG server. In fact, not shocked but also infuriated at such a display of pubplay.

However, now I know its simply something that's going to happen in this game. I know that one time some teammates and I were moving to Objective C on Almaden. The next wave of Insurgent reinforcements actually spawned right around us, leading to some frenetic spawn-killing.

It happens, and in these cases I believe it'll just have to be something we'll suck up and drive on. The game was designed this way. So long as it isn't intentional...

[Vulcan]

Actually it's something we have a bit of control over in the IMC files. However some of the maps are just bad mapping more so than gameplay issues. Typically in a push map is where we run into spawn camping issues. As you take objectives your spawn point changes. Much like in BF2 but here some of the maps give you a secure place to spawn while others completely ignore it. We'll have to seperate the good maps from the bad in most cases. The gameplay for the mod has never intended to make spawn attacking part of it's mechanic. This is a fault of the map.

[Atomic Dog]

I think it comes down to a matter of something we just have to accept. If you're caught behind enemy lines, you will kill as you try to move to your next objective. The real problem lies in those who hang back and intentionally spawn camp. It's going to be a real grey area with this mod unfortunately.

EDIT: Also, I've seen members of the offensive team forwarding themselve to the defensive spawn points (the REAL atrocity) and spawn camping them on push maps. This has to stop. I can understand when a defensive team member gets caught behind enemy lines, but when the offense intentionally pushes forward to spawn camp, I can't accept that on push maps.

[Trooper]

We just gotta remember that at TG we don't do that. If a member thinks spawn camping is going on say something. Usually when someone says something about it, its usually true and need to re look at your plan.

Today we had that problem, and yes we where to far forward, but it was a good defensive spot because the USMC had another route they could take. Couple got kicked for spawn camping, but that was after repeated warnings and attempts to move them back.

Just dont turn this into the "boundaries" discussion. Play the objectives and you will be fine. The other thing to have is a CO/SL on top of things. Flag gets caped move to next objective. As stated though so maps are just poorly designed and spawn camping happens with out even realizing it. Just don't go looking for kills, thats not the objective.

[† Disciple †]

A big offender of this is Almaden Iraq, When you are spawning at 'Bravo' and are trying to capture 'Charlie' you can move through the building you spawn in as the Marines and can come right out into the street where the Insurgents spawn, slightly behind them. First time i played this was with Dirtboy and i remember we both came out this exit unknowningly entering their spawn from behind and as we passed through two Insurgents spawned lying down (a complete disadvantage) so i had to kill them as i ran over them on my way to the objective.

Not really much else could be done other than never use that certain route out of the Bravo spawn.

[sparhawkxx]

Even though the maps are bigger the objectives are tighter because the gameplay is faster. We have to strickly stick with objectives and yes again there must be alot and lots of communication to do this. You will find out whos camping fast. Its that guy saying nothing Except for waters


P.S. Moving rooms or maybe half a block and then breaking the enemy wave, regrouping and moving again ETC. All while capturing objectives is a good plan. Everybody needs to be on board.


Thank you

[Obi]

I think part of the problem is many peolpe are not familiar with the maps. I believe on one occasion I fired an RPG into an enemy spawn point but that was only because I didn't know that there was a spawn point there. Once people start learning the maps better we'll probably see a reduction in this problem although I do agree that on some occasions you may be attacked while at your spawn point simply because of bad mapping.

[Gillespie]

I say we not even worry about it. The only time this seems to happen is during the Push games, where one team is attacking and the other is defending. Almaden gets this a lot, but that's usually because the Marines are heading towards Charlie or Delta before hitting Bravo.

The map design isn't really that bad as long as you keep yourself on that linear path to the next objective. Its when you start taking out-of-the-way routes to the next objective that you begin running amok (intentionally or not) through the other team's spawn.

Example for Almaden.

Marines going after Alpha: Insurgents spawn in that rear area of the mosque.

Marines towards Bravo: Insurgents spawn in that building adjacent to the courtyard by Delta.

Marines heading to Charlie: Insurgents spawn in the courtyard, amidst the burning cars and what-not.

To Delta: Game's pretty much over at this point. Insurgents still spawn in the courtyard, and the Marines have an excellent attack route through the building in between Charlie and the Delta building.

[Atomic Dog]

Originally Posted by Gillespie

I say we not even worry about it.

Hate to say it, but I'm with you here. Until we all know the maps like the back of our hands, or have the ability to move the spawns around, then I don't think there's much we can do to avoid this issue. The fact of the matter is, as a lot of others have stated, that sometimes spawn points are right alongside routes that lead to objectives. This results in people getting killed in spawn.

The thing I'd like to not see is the intentional spawn camping. Sometimes spawn KILLING is inevitable, but spawn CAMPING we gotta curb. If you're on the way to your objective and a bunch of bad guys spawn right next to you...I don't blame you for dusting them. But then you stop and realize .oO(Those guys just spawned here... <evil laugh>) then you hang around to hit the next wave, that's just bad form. Albeit, destroying the waves of the enemy seems to also be an objective in this game.

[Vulcan]

I think on maps like almaden, they rushed the map a bit and didn't have time to create a more secure spawn point for each team at each objective. Take a look at baghdad once and you'll see that spawn camping never really becomes a problem because the mapper had time to create sufficient area for spawns.

I really don't think spawns are meant to be in the main routes towards the objective, that's just unfinished/bad mapping. Think about it, how hard is it to make a secure area where the players jump down or run up a ramp to get out?

DoD source is the same way, they have very safe and clear spawn areas that the enemy cannot get into.

[What Is Schwa?]

I think it is a big deal just because of how un-fun it is.

When a player spawns it always takes a few seconds to find one's bearings. It is no fun waiting 30 seconds to immediately die, waiting another 30 seconds to try and quick spin around to find the player shooting at you, than maybe kill him.

I should hope that the players of this community understand that we all play this game to have fun. Doing something that directly impedes another player's enjoyment doesn't do anything for the community.

-Aaron

[† Disciple †]

I vote hugh levels are needed with only one goal, clear out the opposite team.

[Gillespie]

Almaden's great compared to something like... say, Sinjar. This is the map where the Marines spawn at the bottom of the hill and must either rush up the right side (and get slaughtered near the scaffolding) or rush up the left side (and get slaughtered trying to work their way through the debris-strewn street).

The spawn points are absolutely retarded on this map. The start spawn is in clear view with no cover from the hilltop strongpoints that the Insurgents occupy within seconds of beginning the match. Should the Marines manage to capture Bravo (the area beside the two cargo trucks on the left side of the map) then they have the privilege of spawning by the trucks within ridiculously-easy range of Insurgents still camping up on the hilltop edge.

Also, a small team of Insurgents can easily move down the right side of the map (the edge with the scaffolding and radio tower) and pick Marines off as they spawn in their original positions.

Either give the Marines an enormous amount of reinforcement waves (casualties are huge on Sinjar) or increase the time between Insurgent reinforcement wave to give the Marines some breathing room. I honestly don't recall seeing the Marines win here.

[MagnaCentipede]

Is there a way to actually see in Sinjar? I get a few hundred yards and hit a fog/clipping plane.