Magna's off topic complaints

[MagnaCentipede]

Please, Vulcan...don't do to Ins what you did to CSS. I quit playing a couple weeks ago because of all the meddling. You had Tactical CSS by enforcing regulated play and simple realism tweaks like "heavy guns slow you down" and "getting shot a lot can kill you" and "you can't aim perfectly when you're being smaked with lead" which made sense. But then came a bunch of silly things like player models skating around when shooting or being shot, which is a netplay syncing nightmare since suddenly shooter, shot, and server all have different ideas of what's going on. And someone said something about regeneration? Doesn't that counter the whole bleeding thing? I just wanted to play CSS that wasn't arcade chaos with silly flying AWP headshots with people who were seeking, and found, the same.

Insurrection is still a work-in-progress and it's by-and-for people who want realism. If the damage isn't right, it will be worked on by the people working on it. In real life, won't you want to not be shot? Wouldn't you want to make a really good plan with your mates so when you advance you all don't die, and when it's not safe to advance, to defend until you are? And if the other team locks you down and you cannot advance, doesn't that mean they kinda won fair and square? If it's not safe to peek out because Team Moustache's strategy is better than yours, then you should be risking your life to peek out because that's their reward for having their ducks in a row.

It's not like our troops in Iraq can complain to their CO that they're pinned out and that it's not fair... they have to hang tough, stay down, and work the situation by either finding a way out, getting help from another unit, or getting an airplane to put some kaboom in the Insie's vicinity.

The exploration of different spawn and objective locations is great, but leave the game as it is until its problems are known to be problems and not merely things that some people think could/should be done differently.

Thank you for your time.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I agree on the hitboxes. Something is clearly wrong. I took my Para to the shootin' range and I could hit nothin' but 7-ring at better from beyond the far line. From the first couple lines, I was ripping apart the cutout-men's jaws and necks like I couldn't help it. That means I should have no problem hitting meat 50% of the time when I have a clean shot from any reasonable range, yet countless times I've had someone behind a car or sandbags, where the head and shoulders were fully exposed, and with Rifle or Sniper, I'd fire a number of times and simply nothing happened. This is the opposite of what Derdmeh describes, but I also know that the first night I was almost golden with the T's bolt-action beauty, so it may be a variable issue related to server-quality.


Regarding where you are and where you think you are, your camera position is naturally behind your head hitbox, because it's mounted in your center of rotation. In CSS, enable box view, and you can see your head box framed before you, so yeah, your seeing from inside your head, not from the front of your face, and thus you are more exposed than it would initially seem. This could probably be fixed, but since they already said they plan to make a new batch of models and animations once the big bugs are down, I wouldn't expect them to fix it until after that's completed. Just be paranoid and expect they can see you.

[What Is Schwa?]

Magna>

I enjoy reading your posts. You are well informed and bring much to this community.

I have a small objection with this:

Please, Vulcan...don't do to Ins what you did to CSS. I quit playing a couple weeks ago because of all the meddling... I just wanted to play CSS that wasn't arcade chaos with silly flying AWP headshots with people who were seeking, and found, the same.

Of all the work Vulcan has done for the CS:S server, I would describe none of it negatively or as "meddling." I admire Vulcan's willingness to try new things, and further admire his devotion to the community. Some of the changes have been for the better, and some for the worse. However, situations where a change has detracted from the gameplay have always been reversed.

Vulcan's willingness to try new things has lead to some incredibly fun nights on the CS:S server. Ones that never would have been possible if he hadn't tried something a little different. If he can do that for Insurgency too, I'll be a happy Tactical Gamer.

-Aaron

[MagnaCentipede]

I only found it objectionable when it created real gameplay issues to implement "hey it'd be neat if..." features. Weight wasn't a problem because speed-determined-by-weapon was already a working part of Counterstrike, this simply expanded it to me more inclusive. No Crackjumping is a player-discipline issue, and works around the flaky Source hitboxes on jumping models. The disorentation effect on HE grenades (even if it is silly to turn your head completely upside down) gives the pineapples the extra punch they sorely need without simply upping the damage, which has been done by others and shown to be meaningless at small amounts and overpowering at high amounts. Amplified inaccuracy when running and adding motion inaccuracy when being damaged both are extensions of CSS features, so they make logical sense and are part of the game already.

All of that is good stuff and part of the reason I haven't played a pub since coming here, save for meeting up with some proletariat comrades, and a bit of CAL before my clan fell apart.


But during the last couple months it went from modding to meddling. The bullet knockaround thing is foreign to CSS, and the hitbox system and Source lag compensation simply aren't up to the challenge. Firing your weapon should not make you slide backwards, being hit by bullets should not make you slide fifteen feet out of a window. It's suddenly Long Kiss Goodnight: Source. I could understand a stopping and spinning effect -- apply a modifier to the player's desired velocity (scale the +forward/backwards/left/right amounts via a short-lived envelope) and smoothly rotate the player left- or right-ward up to 100° or so depending on where the player is hit and with which calibre. That would be far closer to actually being struck with a bullet and wouldn't desync the hitboxes or the player location information and it wouldn't be anything that isn't already in Counterstrike. 9mm already slows people down in Source, and I don't think the spin effect would be a problem since it'd just be a forged mouse-yaw event.

But that wasn't enough. Needed MOAR REALIZIM. So people started floating against gravity by pointing firing their M249's at the ground after walking off of ledges.

See what I'm getting at? Instead of expanding CSS's known capabilities to tone down the arcade aspects of Counterstrike, it turned into a hack-job of generic tweaking mod tweaks to somehow turn CSS into a realism game when CSS is not a realism game. Personally I find that disrespectful to the game. TG has a long list of games it 'supports.' Now, if any one was the paragon of realism, shouldn't that be the only game TG plays if realism is what TG is about? No, TG plays many games because the games are different and because TG members have different preferences. What all those games and these players have in common / desire from their gaming is a co-operative team aspect and a measure of real life realism in the fabricated game world. In my opinion, the modifications to CSS went from bending Counterstrike into shape to breaking it in an attempt to fit its round peg into a square hole. Counterstrike, as a TG game, used to fit the bill for players who wanted a fast-action arcade game that used non-fantasy weapon designs, no respawns per round, and a focus on boom headshot as the mode of dispatching opposition. Adding three tweaks a week and then banging the Realism gong whenever anyone makes a O.o? face at someone being Jedi-pushed by a Para is disrespectful to CSS -- it says CSS isn't good enough for TG. And in time, TG CSS quit being CSS. It became some alpha for a CSS mod that would never reach the state Insurgency is already at.


I don't doubt Vulcan can do a lot to improve Ins gameplay on TG's server. Already he's addressing the spawnpoint issue which is something within the scope of Ins and that doesn't change the rules of the game, but how the players approach the map. That's good stuff. But notice how the first three reactions to a proposed rules tweak on acc/damage was met with resistance? That's a meddling warning if I've ever seen one. The mod's been out for three days, a big improvement patch forged by the suggestions and feedback of thousands of players is on the way... this is no time to start trying to optimise. If people start to grouch about something in-game, and continue to grouch about it in-forum, then it's time to consider adjustments. As far as I know, the spawn issue went through that process.

I can't say with certainty, of course; I'm not allowed in the house.

[† Disciple †]

Magna i read through your post and i understand your concern. Now i'm not the sort of person who pretends to be clever enough to understand all of what your saying lol, but i do have some things i feel need to be pointed out.

Firing your weapon should not make you slide backwards, being hit by bullets should not make you slide fifteen feet out of a window.

It doesn't, maybe there were cases in the testing stages of this script when the values weren't fully known. However this was quickly rectified.

So people started floating against gravity by pointing firing their M249's at the ground after walking off of ledges

To my knowledge this only took place on the 2nd server under test conditions and was deemed not the right modification for our server and so did not remain.

could understand a stopping and spinning effect -- apply a modifier to the player's desired velocity (scale the +forward/backwards/left/right amounts via a short-lived envelope) and smoothly rotate the player left- or right-ward up to 100° or so depending on where the player is hit and with which calibre. That would be far closer to actually being struck with a bullet and wouldn't desync the hitboxes or the player location information and it wouldn't be anything that isn't already in Counterstrike.

Mate you should bring this up in the Counter Strike Dev forum, and if you know ways of implementing it then im sure that it will be greeted with open arms (and lots of plus rep).

Also if you have problems with the path the CSS server is taking then feel free to speak up, but probably the best place would be in the Dev forum, with your knowledge and know how im sure you would be accepted, just apply in your User CP and youll find people willing to discuss these matters.

Sorry if i misunderstood anything in my ingnorance but i wanted to share my views on it the subject.

[MagnaCentipede]

I understand those were reverted; I'm simply making example of them as things that didn't really make a whole lot of sense in the Counterstrike Source context, and as part of the parade of tweaks that seemed to be marching through that month.

As far as dev stuff goes, I code C++ but I don't know the Source engine code structure from a hole in the ground. Hence, I've worked as beta test and advisor for Goldeneye Source, but while officially a programmer I simply have access to the code so I can investigate bugs and potential solutions. (And yes, like Ins, I think if GES survives it will be a great mod, but three years behind original schedule. There's a lot of awesome in the WIP, but they never take my advice when they need to most...) Anyway, anyone who needs to hear that suggestion will see it here and take it where it needs to go.

Also, you don't need to undercut yourself like that.

[What Is Schwa?]

I hope I didn't offend you Magna. I really do respect your knowledge and always enjoy reading your posts.

-Aaron

[Trooper]

Truely shouldnt this be handled in a pm?

Any tweak that vulcan has done so far has only helped the game. Considering as a non-sm you have no clue what he has done to the insurgency game. At TG we do have to tweak each game we play here to fit our style. The CSS has only grown since the new changes and additions. And any change he has made, if it dint help the game was changed back.

[SheerSonicBlue]

I'm digging everything so far, just think that Baghdad map should be removed from the rotation till the bugs are worked out - 8 of 10 server crashes are on that map.

[Gillespie]

He isn't bashing Vulcan, by any means. He's just expressing his concerns at keeping the core gameplay the same. I'm in that particular boat with him. One gets a little antsy when barely one day after the mod is released, folks are wanting weapons buffed/nerfed/removed, weapon jams, accuracy buffed/nerfed, damage systems buffed/nerfed, etc, etc.

However, I think everyone's in agreement that the maps themselves need some modifications and playtesting to truly find a balance between the two forces. Sinjar, in particular, is ridiculously-difficult for the Marines. Only time I've seen Marines win at Sinjar was when it was 4 on 4. Get it up to a 30 v 30 game where Insurgents can cover everything, then it basically becomes impossible for the Marines to win.

But that is its own topic, in the Tactics forum, I believe.

In a nutshell: leave the game tweaks to the mod developers, fiddle with the maps all you want.

[Gillespie]

In an unrelated note, I'm truly TRULY TRULY excited at what user-created maps will do for this game. After all, you don't have to be in a Middle-Eastern setting to enjoy an awesome game of INS.

[Makarov]

They are working on some Croatian maps based on the Yugo civil war. They were hoping to have them ready for this release, so hopefully they will be in the near future.

[Delta]

Off topic much? Anyhoo, like Disciple, I have no idea what you're all talking about. I'm trying to understand as much as I can and am liking what I'm seeing, but this seems as if it's starting to cycle a little..