Weapon Inaccuracy.

[I.R. Hogan]

While the server was empty I decided to test my theory on why some hit and some dont.. What I did was fire each weapon at a wall then, I would carefully line up the sight on the prior bullet hole, what I found is that all the weapons at under approx 50 ft shoot around 3 inches low. after 50 feet its only about an inch. I have included screen shots..

This shows the Iron Sight Placement


These shots were done under 30 feet


These were done over 50 ft.


I emphasis that i was prone and very carefull to aim at the prior shot. Not hard to do when server is empty..
This is something to keep in mind when you are in a fire fight. Unlike CS you dont have to have a headshot to kill but
I am sure it helps. To actually hit the point you are aiming at you would have to cover the target with the sights
instead of resting the target on top of the sight as you would in real life...

I wish you could sight a weapon in like in the real world that would absolutely rock..

[INVAZN]

Very interesting. Now i finally know why some of my shots don't hit when i rest the target on the top of the sight. Thanks for the info!

[Lt.Waters555]

This is a confirmed bug and the developers are working on fixing it. What is wrong is the first person view(what you as the player sees) is incorrectly aligned with the player model. There was a thread on the INS mod website that had all kinds of screenshots. I hope it gets fixed soon.

[Delta]

I agree with you Hogan. Every single gun in the game except for the sniper rifles have a little bit of a downward aim. It's pretty much the exact opposite of how our CS:S server works. Now you have to aim for the head to get a torso shot. =P BoomHeadshot FTW.

[BHack]

Yes, I noticed this straight away and always aim high now. It's rather annoying but at least can be compensated for.

[Delta]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to I.R. Hogan again.

[Acreo Aeneas]

I aim in the general chest high area and fire off several double-taps. I figured something was up when some shots failed to kill my opponents when sighted.

+1 to Hogan for a great job at finding out this intresting information.

[CingularDuality]

Wait, Hogan, are you saying that the distance between the point of aim and the point of impact is greater the closer you get to the target? To a certain point, that is highly realistic, especially with the M16, as the sights are offset from the bore so much.

[MagnaCentipede]

It does work that way, but the problem lies in the fact that real iron sights are aligned so you rest your target atop the pin, like the dot over an "i", and that the distance between bullet origin and camera center seems to be based on the low "carry" position of the rifle on the model, even when it's being iron-sighted, and thus, should be only a couple inches below the sight line. Which is probaly why you can't shoot over the sandbags you can easily see over while prone. (Apparently the camera position is too high, compared to the model, as well, exacerbating this issue.)

[CingularDuality]

Originally Posted by MagnaCentipede

It does work that way, but the problem lies in the fact that real iron sights are aligned so you rest your target atop the pin, like the dot over an "i", and that the distance between bullet origin and camera center seems to be based on the low "carry" position of the rifle on the model, even when it's being iron-sighted, and thus, should be only a couple inches below the sight line. Which is probaly why you can't shoot over the sandbags you can easily see over while prone. (Apparently the camera position is too high, compared to the model, as well, exacerbating this issue.)

Hmmm. I've only played this game for about an hour so far, and I experienced no problems with aiming, so forgive me if I don't understand the problem. Looking at the screenshots posted above, it looks like the point of impact is an inch below the point of aim at 50 feet and 3 inches below the point of aim at under 30 feet, which is similar to what would happen in real life if you're using an optical sight, or the M16's iron sights, which are set several inches above the bore of the rifle.

Think of it this way. If you're an arms length away from a wall of sandbags that has a one inch diameter hole in it, and you aim in with your sights through that hole and squeeze the trigger while the sights are perfectly aligned in the center of your target, what are you going to hit? Nothing but sandbag! Your sights might be looking through that one inch hole, but your barrel is several inches below it!

[MagnaCentipede]

The problem is the bullets come from the rifle, and the rifle is embedded in the sand bag, but in first-person, the rifle is above the sandbag.

The cure is to either fix the models so the rifle is really up to eye level when sighted (it looks to me they're held rather low, at least in the croutching-sighted position with AK), actually render the world model so you can see if your rifle is clipped into geometry, or code it so your weapon can bump geometry.

The latter is the best, but also the hardest to get right, since you need an intelligent way to "fix" the gun position when someone wants to turn while leaning against a wall. Aside: Thief 3's ability to lean against a wall would rock in this game, especially since they feature it on the wallpaper.

[Dead.MaN^]

could u do the same test with the sniper, especially the insurgent one? i guess evryone knows the situation on karkar, USMC sniper sitting up in the window of this kinda factory, and you with ur sniper in front of the elevator shaft. each time I shoot at least 10 exact shots at his head but nothing ever happens

[Monkey101]

i kinda like that it shoots under the iron sight. u am right at the target and ur first shot might miss or hit his legs, but ur consecutive shots move up and then would hit the guy.
Yeah i have problems with the sniper too. maybe it is bc i move around, but most of the time i miss 3 out of 4 shots using the sniper even when im aimed right at the guy.

[Acacios]

I do not know how much Insurgency is based on Real World mechanics (apart from ballistics, which seem simplistic at best), but what Hogan has illustrated is close to actuality.
The "Sight Picture" and where your barrel is in relation to it has little to do with where your shots land, beyond 100m (91yds). Below that distance and where you aim (even with minimum distance correction on sight aperture) the "Sight Picture" is then effected by it's physical location relative to the barrel, (Bore Line) but not by much.

Most normal infantry doctrine instructs soldiers to have their weapons "Zeroed In" to at least 100m (91yds) and then manually corrected for use at 300m (274yds) by "Dialing In" the rear sight aperture.
*This has been made easier on the Iron sighted M16A3/4 and late model M4's by the adaptation of large chunky adjuster dials.
Older models had plush bezels that needed a small specialized tool to manually correct for distance (Or the head of a loose round if the situation was intense enough )

So lets assume for a moment the in-game mechanics are setup for 300m (274yds) standard. (and wavering any beta bugs or abnormalities, and point blank shooting) What we are therefore talking about is "Inclined Fire".

Inclined fire is a shooting situation in which a weapon is first zeroed in at a shooting range that is level or nearly level, and later must be fired at a target located either upward or downward at some inclination angle and some slant range distance between the shooter and the target. An upward inclination angle is called an elevation angle, and a downward inclination angle is called a depression angle.

In such a situation a weapon will always shoot high compared to where it shoots on a level trajectory. How high the weapon will shoot varies with both inclination angle and slant range distance to the target. The problem facing the shooter is how to determine how much the impact point of the bullet will change at the inclination angle and slant range distance, and then to adjust their aim so that the target is hit. Adjusting the aim can take place in either one of two ways. The shooter will usually aim a little lower for an inclined shot than they would aim for a horizontal shot, in order to compensate for the weapon shooting higher. This is especially true for urban combat, because shots at moving or partially concealed targets must happen quickly. But a sniper in a situation where there is more time to prepare for the shot would probably dial a come-up or come-down on his sight, after calculating the correct aiming adjustment. (not modelled in-game)

To use either of these techniques the shooter must know where the bullet will be relative to the line of sight through the sights on the weapon at the slant range distance to the target. In other words, the shooter must know what is called the Bullet Path, that is, the distance between the line of sight and the position of the bullet at the slant range distance of the target. Bullet Path is always measured. "Perpendicular To The Line Of Sight". It is positive when the bullet is above the line of sight, and negative when the bullet is below the line of sight. A convenient mental picture of Bullet Path is where the shooter would "see" the rear end of the bullet, if they could watch the bullet through the weapon sight as it flies the trajectory. IE Tracer rounds. We make a careful distinction between Bullet Path and Bullet Drop. Drop is the "Vertical" distance between the extended bore line of the weapon and the position of the bullet, at the slant range distance of the target. It is very important to keep in mind that Bullet Path and Drop are not the same, and the shooter needs to know Bullet Path, not Drop, in order to aim the weapon.


This could of course be completely moot if there are no instances in the game this effect is modelled, and is only caused by incomplete or "Beta" programming. (To be ironed out for published release.)

For a definite answer a word from the development team might be nice, or someone "In The Know", but can be tested out in-game with non competitive testing.
A "Target" setting them selves up in various locations, both high and low comparative to the "Shooter" and assess bullet path/ drop (if modelled) and where the "Shooter" aimed to achieve the shot.


Acacios.