Operation Acorn and MAA

[Braidedheadman]

With the increased amount of play-time concurrent with higher server populations that Operation Acorn has seen since 1.70 was released, one question keeps coming to mind - rather forcefully I might add.

Why does a map that spawns one, and only one, chopper for the team that holds the Quarry CP need two MAA pieces?

With the way the map is laid out, and given that there's just the one chopper to share between two teams, the MAA present on that map is woefully misplaced and does much to disrupt full enjoyment of the map. By far, the vast majority of kills credited to MAA come from the swaths of infantrymen that it cuts through.

In a game of checks and balances, this situation is not "A Good Thing™" to say the least. In fact, it's safe to say that MAA on this map is not fulfilling its intended role - not that it would have much opportunity to do so in the first place (only one chopper). A better AA option to counter the helicopter - on any Acorn map size where the chopper spawns - would be to place 2 MANPAD kits each at the German and Ukraine UCBs where a squad can be put together to keep airpower in check without hosing down ground forces everywhere they go.

I move that Operation Acorn be struck from the map roster (again) until adjustments can be made. It's a fun map all in all, except when an MAA vehicle rolls around the corner – intent on not doing what it was meant to do by design, if not by name.

[FBmantis]

I agree with most of what you said but you lost me at dumping the map from the rotation because of this. That AA does not scare me at all nor does it come close to putting a dent into my enjoyment factor for Acorn. This map is still pretty dark compared to most...armor in general is so easy to take out on this map cause they never see it coming with the foilage and darker atmosphere.

Sure though...its silly and maybe 1% of the time gets used appropriately. Things that bug me about Acorn:

- Chopper is rarely used for transport...maps too small...not needed.
- Stationary AA is at the flag where the transport is...not too useful then depsite the good view point.
- Mobile AA for a transport chopper is overkill and they instead focus on spamming for infantry kills.
- Village flag forces UKR armor to engage around if not within its UCB.

Despite all that...I like Acorn for now. Good infantry squadwork potential, variety in flag styles and armor sees play but nothing that can't be negated.

[Rick_Slick]

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

It's a fun map all in all, except when an MAA vehicle rolls around the corner – intent on not doing what it was meant to do by design, if not by name.

Which at that point should be easily dispatched by your squad's AT assets, if your SL chose kits appropriately.

[khaerus]

"Acorn" was one of my favorite maps before, and we lost it... It's one of my favorites again, and I don't want it to go, however nonsensical a few of it's quirks might be. I am still mourning the loss of "Woodlands;" and I need my infantry-map fix...

[ProjectNA]

^^^ I miss her too.

Hopefully we can:
- adjust to the MAA issue on Acorn
- bring back Woodlands : )

[[tR]Greasy_mullet]

Woodlands will be included in a map pack just like it was before along with those other maps.

[Braidedheadman]

@Mantis:
Well, what can I say? You're Mantis. What scares Mantis?

As for the map's darkened lighting and foliage, this is my favorite part about the map. But this is less helpful at a CP like the Farm where there's a lot of open area to contend with. I don't care that I am being killed while defending or that my squaddies are being slaughtered and we've lost the flag. Be it anything but MAA; that's par for the course.

To elaborate somewhat on what I've said, the thing that bothers me is the mismatched tools that are being brought to bear against defenders on a map that has no call for such assets as these whatsoever. What annoys me further and ultimately ruins the map for me is the thought that MAA is on the map to counter a single helicopter shared between 2 teams and that it frequently won’t even have the opportunity of going up against the target for which it was intended; it’s literally an open invitation to spam AA all over infantry positions. I get annoyed when I’m killed by MAA 3 and 4 times in a row as it camps spawns, provoking the thought, "Why isn’t this thing hunting down aircraft instead of infantry?"

Thus, the deaths don’t annoy me so much as the underlying flaw that caused those deaths in the first place - a flaw that IMO makes those deaths meaningless and unnecessary. How does the saying go? "What is the definition of insanity? To do something wrong over and over again with no hope that it will ever change or improve." Since the flaw exists at map-design level, I proposed that the map be pulled until adjustments can be made.

Moreover, as if another reason is needed to pull the map, with the inclusion of PoE's new stats tracking, the data set collected for MAA will be made less meaningful in view of the dozens of kills vs infantry that they'll acquire on that map each round. The data is bound to be polluted anyway, sure, but I see no reason to exacerbate the problem by keeping the map in rotation.

But if we don’t pull the map then can we at least pull the MAA similarly to how aircraft were removed on maps like Sambir?

Originally Posted by Rick_Slick

Which at that point should be easily dispatched by your squad's AT assets, if your SL chose kits appropriately.

I think you've missed the point and are attempting to apply an ad hominem solution to an ex machina problem. While perhaps said in jest, these comments do not address the argument directly and are not very helpful. An SL’s ability to successfully lead his squad against an MAA piece is not the argument being made here. MAA is easy enough to deal with when it’s expected (as it is on this map). The bottom line, however, is that it’s overkill and MAA shouldn’t be there at all, period. Static AAA on hilltops (no direct, ground-level LOS to flag positions) and MANPAD would have been a far, far better counter for the chopper.

[Bc2ID]

I agree Braided... however I am guilty of using the MAA to clean out the tower every once and awhile... There is something that just overcomes people when you have this "LARGE" machine gun , the need to use it, the need to kill with it. After I spray the tower I feel guilty and leave it behind the barn and then go throw up.... Hopefully I did not add to your non-enjoyment of the map, I simply love this map and hope it stays. The MAA does need to be tweaked, or replaced with static AA.

B

[[tR]Greasy_mullet]

At least it does not have a UAV attached to it. Oo

[Santa]

This is one of my favorite maps for a couple reasons. First and foremost, the varying styles of the flags is great. You get mixed combat at the Farm and Village flags, awesome infantry fights at the Forest, and an interesting fight at Quarry with tons of ways to go about defending and attacking each.

Secondly, i like how every flag is fairly important. Both the village and farm are back bases and thus have obvious importance. The forest village, imo, is the most important because you can lock down both roads leading to the other flags and therefore disable their armor with RPGs from the forest. Finally, the quarry is important because of the chopper.

My few gripes are similar to everyone elses, but i don't think they are as game breaking as they are being claimed. For the entire game, i think transport choppers should just be stripped of their rockets because its silly. They are *never* used as transport choppers because of it. The mobile AA should be taken out and replaced with pickup AA kits. I hardly feel threatened vs the transport choppers, so a mobile AA is a huge overkill. My final gripe with the map is the small distance between the UKR UCB and the village. Perhaps push the UKR UCB farther back, lengthen the bridge, and for balance reasons make the road from the GER UCB a bit longer to compensate.

[Rick_Slick]

Originally Posted by Braidedheadman

I think you've missed the point and are attempting to apply an ad hominem solution to an ex machina problem. While perhaps said in jest, these comments do not address the argument directly and are not very helpful. An SL’s ability to successfully lead his squad against an MAA piece is not the argument being made here. MAA is easy enough to deal with when it’s expected (as it is on this map). The bottom line, however, is that it’s overkill and MAA shouldn’t be there at all, period. Static AAA on hilltops (no direct, ground-level LOS to flag positions) and MANPAD would have been a far, far better counter for the chopper.

The same argument could be made for the TLAM on Berezan... "it's overkill". Or the Cobra on Blue Nile... "it's overkill".

Also, your point is based on your assumption that "the MAA is only meant to attack aircraft."

It's a weapon... you use it to kill things. It happens to be pretty good at taking out aircraft, but that's not all it can do. It's also pretty good at cleaning out infantry. The infantry can counter the MAA with C4, mines, and AT rockets, so it's not like they can't stop it.

If you're going to drop a map out of the rotation because a vehicle is not being used "as you feel it is intended", where do we draw the line? Are we going to restrict tanks firing shells at helicopters because "tanks are meant to take out ground-based vehicles"? Are we going to restrict planes from dropping bombs on infantry because they are meant to destroy vehicles and stationary equipment? Who decides what vehicle is only supposed to attack what? It's a slippery slope...

[DaV]

Originally Posted by khaerus

"Acorn" was one of my favorite maps before, and we lost it... It's one of my favorites again, and I don't want it to go, however nonsensical a few of it's quirks might be. I am still mourning the loss of "Woodlands;" and I need my infantry-map fix...

Right on Khaerus... Acorn have actually turned out to suit the TG game style quite well. Good infantry map, with both open fields as well as intense close quarter combat on that hill/forest flag. And Woodland is surely missed as well...

Late Sat I was playing on a different PoE server (no one on TG server), and noticed that there was a great map I haven't seen before. Its essentially a hill with trenches and bunkers all over the place. Reminded me of a pure "trench" battle map. Pretty fun map actually, perhaps TG should consider putting it in the rotation?

Assault on Odessa however, seems to affect half of the server with lag issues...that map got to go (or perhaps my comp does....)

[FBmantis]

Originally Posted by DaV

Late Sat I was playing on a different PoE server (no one on TG server), and noticed that there was a great map I haven't seen before. Its essentially a hill with trenches and bunkers all over the place. Reminded me of a pure "trench" battle map.

Tis called Risen and its in the rotation...only going to see it for 32 player counts tho....64 = unenjoyable linear spawn camping meat gringer.

[Braidedheadman]

Originally Posted by Rick_Slick

The same argument could be made for the TLAM on Berezan... "it's overkill". Or the Cobra on Blue Nile... "it's overkill".

Also, your point is based on your assumption that "the MAA is only meant to attack aircraft."

It's a weapon... you use it to kill things. It happens to be pretty good at taking out aircraft, but that's not all it can do. It's also pretty good at cleaning out infantry. The infantry can counter the MAA with C4, mines, and AT rockets, so it's not like they can't stop it.

If you're going to drop a map out of the rotation because a vehicle is not being used "as you feel it is intended", where do we draw the line? Are we going to restrict tanks firing shells at helicopters because "tanks are meant to take out ground-based vehicles"? Are we going to restrict planes from dropping bombs on infantry because they are meant to destroy vehicles and stationary equipment? Who decides what vehicle is only supposed to attack what? It's a slippery slope...

You're logic would have us stay with or go back to the pre-1.70 Frogfoot, as you seem to suggest that anything that annihilates other stuff extremely well is not overkill, but just another weapon or tool to be used. What about the impact that it has on other people’s enjoyment of the game?

You might want to look around you for a moment and check that old and tired, "as you feel it is intended," rebuttal. I'm clearly not the only one that feels this way. While most may not agree with my motion to remove the map from the queue, and I understand that - indeed, I would like this map to become a staple around these parts, sans MAA - so far it looks like you are the only one who does not feel that having 2 MAA units for one transport chopper on that map is overkill.

Except to say that I am opposed to your point of view in the strongest possible terms, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree here. I think we’ve each made our point clear and I see no reason to continue hashing it out.

[Rick_Slick]

Look at me talking like I can even make it out of the friendly UCB without killing myself on someone's claymore!