AA pickup kit

[UndeadSoldier]

It is better now but still seems underpowered. Air assets have plenty of flares and if used judiciously render the AA pickup kit mostly useless and a mild annoyance. When 1.7 came out it was easy to take out air only because flyers weren't used to it and dumped all their flares on the first lock. Now they have learned.

Yes, good tactics should give good rewards but I still think that air is overpowered against ground in POE2. Not as bad as in vanilla BF2, but still too much.

Iunno... I'm from the DC school where any flyer coming in slow could easily get whacked by a fast stinger. I find it hard to sit and watch bombers lazily fly in, drop flares once every few seconds, drop bombs on the mudders, then fly off into the sunset w/o a scratch. Again and again while I have a lock with the AA, thwarted by slow, methodical release of flares. It just doesn't seem right.

I know how to use the AA, too. I get a lock, move the cross hairs up and off the target while flares fly, then move it back down on target to get another quick lock, then shoot. That used to work until flyers learned how to dole out the flares. The smart ones just drop one on lock, wait, and if the lock persists or drops/reacquires drop again. The AA pickup is then rendered useless. Sometimes I'll go ahead and fire immediately on lock as flares are flying and sometimes that actually strikes a hit. But, most often it doesn't.

I flew a lot in DC and learned that you could never fly in slow for an attack. You had to dive in from on high at fast speeds then jack it up vertical to get out. Or, come in high and do a fling bomb run from afar to stay away from the hand-held stingers.

I *know* this isn't DC and it shouldn't be. However, I still think that ground pounders should have better recourse against air in the field.

I won't even mention the stationary AA

[Braidedheadman]

I’m going to have to disagree and say that MANPAD units are more effective than you give them credit for. Ask LuckyShot to post links to some of the videos he captured showing just how effective they, in fact, really are even prior to the buffing they received psot 1.70.

I'm thinking that your comments were perhaps inspired, in part at least, by the German bomber team on Dnipro tonight. I don't say that to inflate my own ego, as it was my gunners who were doing the bulk of the damage. But throughout most of that map, I was constantly being tagged by a MANPAD whose position I could not for the life of me get a fix on. And therein lies the power of the MANPAD system; the likelihood of a jet pilot finding and retaliating against a single MANPAD unit is highly unlikely, even if the MANPAD operator doesn't move around much. I've only been able to score reprisals against the most predictable of MANDPAD teams, and I can count how many times that has happened on one hand.

Having two MANDPAD units working in tandem, especially when they have a support dude feeding them ammo, is especially nightmarish. And while, yes, flairs assist in evading A2A and S2A missiles, they most certainly are not fool-proof. Neither is it as simple as popping one flair at a time before carrying on, business as usual. In order for that flair (flairs more often than not - note the plural) to be effective, the pilot must also take evasive action, causing him to break off any current engagements he/she may have with OPFOR at the very least. At worst, it allows enemy air assets to take up position on his/her six while he’s dodging your MANPAD. And dodging missiles of any kind is not trivial; dodging a missile fired from a source whose position on the map is almost completely obfuscated is harder still. It has also been my experience with 1.80 so far that a single hit from one of these weapons will easily knock a jet into the red from full health, forcing a trip back to the airstrip for repairs.

This combination of MANPAD's effective invisibility to all aircraft, but for jets especially, and their increased lethality post 1.70 makes these weapons extremely effective deterrents and are able to control wide areas of the map, especially when positioned on high ground. Just because you aren't making the kills does not mean that your role with the kit is ineffective nor does it mean that the kit is useless. If you've forced a pilot to turn away, you've just bought your team a minimum of 10 seconds until he can complete a loop and bring his guns to bear and back on whatever target he'd had in mind before the disruption. But if the pilot is smart, he won’t turn back into the direction he thinks he was being tagged from. Those extra seconds might not sound like much, but a single tank can do a lot of damage in that time and a squad of 4-6 can flip a flag and potentially cause some bleed. Take pride in your defensive roles, even if they are not always the most glamorous.

As for AAA, keep in mind that, in the first place, they are most effective against choppers, not jets - though they are extremely lethal in the right hands, requiring a bare handful of hits to score a frag - I’ve counted as few as two direct hits. MANPAD and MAA are a jet's most direct (and most lethal) counter apart from other jets.

The bottom line though is that no one weapon in any game should come equipped with an, "I win!!" button bolted onto it. Yet this is precisely what it would be if a single MANPAD’s damage against aircraft was raised any further or if its tracking AI were improved over its current behavior. I can pretty well guarantee that if you stop trying to solo the thing, team up with a second MANPAD buddy and have a support dude tag along, you’ll find that you’re aircraft hunting will be much, much more rewarding.

[Lucky Shot]

What Braided said. Here are two videos, one of a squad we ran with 2 stingers and a support, the second of a gepard versus the Ukraine airforce.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ahz2MEKXkyU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RYXoDO6b7fA

Lucky Shot

*edit* not my video, but this one includes in game scopes. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G3s188E5z1g

[Rick_Slick]

The shoulder-launched AA missiles are so useless, people are turning them in for shoes!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-b...hschool_xpromo

[UndeadSoldier]

Cool comments. I wasn't asking for an "I win" weapon, just voicing my frustration on how it shouldn't be that bombers can lazily stroll in for an attack w/o a care. That's what it seems like to me, and it was me that was giving you problems on Dnipro I think. I realize that keeping constant lock on air assets keeps them more on their toes, but in that case it didn't really seem to be doing much against slow moving bombers.

From those vids it looks like the AA is most effective in pairs and I usually work alone since nobody else ever seems to want to work together with that weapon. I'll create an AA squad but only rarely will people actually take to the task, and I've never had another player get the other AA pickup to work in tandem. I'm not good at SL so it is tough for me to get people coordinated to do that unless I get really good players in the squad, and if I'm SL that usually doesn't happen

Also, in the vids I don't see a many flares coming off the targets. When I'm doing it it is like the 4th of frickin' July with flares.

Is it always best to go ahead and shoot on lock, regardless of flares? Is the probability that the missile will still hit high enough to make that worth it?

Iunno, I've always felt that air has been way overpowered against ground from day one in BF2 & POE2. Since I've chosen to stay on the ground it is more frustrating

[Rick_Slick]

I was going to make a snarky comment about Braided not wanting AA to become "I win!" when right now, in the hands of a decent pilot, air assets are pretty much "I win!". But I think the issue is deeper than that...

The problem is that air assets and AA weapons are so diametrically opposed that if you overbalance one over the other, then it becomes the "I win!!!" button. With weak AA, aircraft become the "I win!!!" button with their bombs, missiles, and guns. I don't think I was able to stay in a vehicle for more than 2 minutes without Namebot swooping down to take me out, unmolested, on Dnipro the other night. But the second you give AA a boost (i.e. one-shot, one-kill, better range/tracking, etc) then it becomes the "I win!!!" button and no fun to use the air assets anymore because you wouldn't be able to stay in those for more than 2 minutes until AA brought you down. I watched one of the videos Lucky posted, and I would have to agree with Undead... there are certainly a disproportionate lack of flare use in those clips than I experience during a real game. So yes, I suppose the shoulder-launched AA works great on newb pilots.

At least with ground vehicles, there are multiple ways you can deal with them, and to a certain degree they have restricted movement and you can avoid/hide from them as you need to. Not so with the ability for air assets to traverse the map quickly, without being restricted by terrain, and with all of their fancy HUD indicators pointing everything out to them.

Am I saying something needs to be nerfed or boosted? Not really... other people in this thread can fight over that. I am just pointing out that I just don't think it's possible to achieve middle ground with air assets vs. AA.

[UndeadSoldier]

I think DC had a good middle ground. Since they didn't track, the stingers were only good for air assets coming in low or lingering and were not so good for long shots. This forced pilots to think hard about strolling in for a strike yet left them unmolested to their dogfights up high. I think the damage against helos was reduced to compensate.

I'm not advocating DC-like stingers because that would be, well, DC. Well, maybe I am Slick is probably right, though: with tracking weapons the balance seems to be very hard to reach and teeters one way or the other.

Also, since I haven't spent any time in air assets in BF2/POE2 its hard to have first-hand perspective on how A2A defense changes as you change G2A, so there are lots of considerations and it is no easy task. I'm glad the modders are giving it their all to balance things well so I can just sit back and whine about it

[Lucky Shot]

With flares, just keep your eye on what is currently getting the lock. Sometimes it's still the jet/chopper. When that happens, fire away. Your not going to get a hit every time, but all those video's happened under in game circumstances.

Lucky Shot

[UndeadSoldier]

If you fire on what is locked then is there a chance it will disengage and re-aquire lock on something else? Or does it go after that lock and that lock only, hitting based on a percent chance?

[Lucky Shot]

Not that I have seen, when it's locked it's locked. If it locks on something else before it leaves the end of your gun then yes, but once it's in the air it follows the lock.

Lucky Shot

[UndeadSoldier]

Seriously? So, barring client/server latency issues if I launch when locked on a target then it will ignore any subsequently launched flares and go for the original target? That seems unintuitive.

[Lucky Shot]

If you lock onto the flare, no matter how many choppers are in the area, you will hit the flare.

Lucky Shot

[Braidedheadman]

First off, jets like the Tornado are only effective when you have a second crewman willing to operate the weapons officer's chair and a pilot who is willing to fly in such a way that he gets lots of time to hold his lock on targets and maintain that lock while the weapons are deployed. Naturally, this is high-risk in that it means flying at reduced speed (but not less than 600 KPH), just as Undead has observed. But more importantly, it's the team-work factor (involving coordinated efforts between 2 people) that makes it less an "I win!!" button situation than a tactical situation - just as it is with 2 MANPADs working in tandem. Both are ineffective when soloed but are decidedly lethal when operated in teams. Should it be any other way? Just to reemphasize, by himself the solo Tornado pilot is just a slow fighter, and less effective than the Eurofighter at that; a good pilot who is doing his job will always make fewer points than his gunner.

I could also add that the Frogfoot, which used to be the undisputed king of "I win!!", is no longer the threat to all ground targets that it once was, though it is still a thorn in the sides of vehicle crews (as it should be, I believe). As for the fighters, they really don’t have any impact on the ground game at all apart from how effective they are at chasing off other dedicated A2G aircraft. Just about the only place a regular infantryman needs to be cautious around vs these aircraft in PoE are the AAA nests, which are more (highly) effective vs choppers than jets in the first place.

Secondly, again, it may seem like the fourth of July, but the combination of flairs and evasive maneuvers means that you've perhaps saved a life somewhere and thus gave your team +1 or more tickets in much the same way that a medic does with each revive. Also, as I pointed out earlier, it's not fool-proof and missiles will frequently break through and strike their target. SAM defenses seem particularly nasty that way, as they are much harder to shake than A2A. I can assure you that when I am popping flairs, it's not random, nor is it timed and tuned to your firing your missile at me. Instead, it is attenuated to my evasive maneuvers in order to maximize their coverage across the skyline as I may escape - away from you I might add - and hopefully not back to base.

Let me also just add that 2 MANDPADS operated in tandem are just as effective against the n00bs as they are against the vets and I'll share a little secret with you. Prior to the changes in 1.70 when the German jets didn't have a prayer against the Mig and were essentially flying coffins (already highly frustrating), Lucky has forced me to quit the round in frustration with his SAM defenses, whether in MAA or tandem MANPAD. There was just no way to prevail against either air or ground at the time with the defenses that were in place. While the Mig got nerfed and the skies are now more or less a level playing field (better than what they were per-1.70 at least, IMO), the MANPADs were buffed. Frankly, I'd rather not be telling you any of this because someone might actually realize that they can make pilot's lives hell out there and ruin my fun.

Finally, the assertion that aircraft like jets are over powered is really only true when they are bringing pain down on all ground targets, including and especially infantry. I find that this doesn’t happen in PoE since the weapons that jets have are almost strictly anti vehicle, delivering a good punch through a small blast radius, the effectiveness of which is limited by the pilot’s skill in getting his weapons on target with precision. It’s certainly not like vanilla where jets are indeed overbearing and have virtually no viable countermeasure, as in the case of the J10.

[Edit] Regarding lock behavior, when I get a lock on my tail, I immediately switch to my reverse cams to observe where the missile is coming from and its behavior as it approaches in order that I might react to it. I've seen MANPAD punch through flairs and evasive maneuvers frequently. I've even seen them behave like they were spoofed by a flair at first only to turn and require my tail, at which point I'm out of flairs and there's nothing more I can do but pray.

SAMs are like hockey, I think. The most effective way to score a goal/hit is to make sure that you’re always shooting the puck/missile every chance you get. Not shooting is just a missed opportunity and just because you have no lock and the aircraft is out of visual range does not mean that firing a stray one won’t acquire and zero in on your intended victim. I had someone do that to me last night on Highway to Hell from a Ukr MAA. He spammed missiles my way after I thought I was long gone and out of range. Still watching my rear cams, I watched in horror as two missiles appeared out of beyond-draw-distance range and acquired my tail. With no more flairs left, I had to explain to my co-pilot why we just died and why there was no lock on warning tone until the very last second when his missiles finally "saw" us.

God... I don’t know why I’m sharing all this. It’s going to bite me in the arse, I just know it.

[Rick_Slick]

I'm reading what you're saying, Braided, but I can't help but feel a twinge of "Yes, but of course he's going to say that... he likes to fly jets. It's in his best interests to never see the AA gain any improvements." But at the same time, I read what Undead is writing and I also feel a twinge of "But of course he's going to say that... the jets are a constant source of harassment for him and he would love to be able to take them down easier."

So, for what it's worth, you're never going to have someone who uses aircraft ever say "Yeah, the AA could use some improvements...", and you're never going to have someone who prefers ground warfare say "Yeah, the AA is too overpowered..." Like I said... you'll never find a middle ground on two polar opposite assets in the game. It will always be a swinging pendulum with each attempt to re-balance.

[UndeadSoldier]

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

If you lock onto the flare, no matter how many choppers are in the area, you will hit the flare.

Lucky Shot

What about if you lock onto a plane/chopper? Will it stay locked or will it break if flares are thrown after it was fired?