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Discussion: ArmA - Development / ArmA - Mission Development - PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests - Originally Posted by Chichco 3)And dont give everybody rangefinders (maybe only SL and Recon), give
  1. #46

    Toptonic - Butler's Avatar

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Quote Originally Posted by Chichco View Post
    3)And dont give everybody rangefinders (maybe only SL and Recon), give binoculars and let FTLs find info how to use mil-dot system and give range to AT/other. Also maps should have only SL FTL Mortar gunner and Recon.
    Will be perfect if script will check map and delete all side/group/other markers coz its not real 2 when everybody over map can c ur marks, more realistic use MapTools.
    I support this fully. I may actually try to make a script that does this quickly, just for scripting practice.

    Edit: After some research, it seems to not be possible without disabling the map.
    Last edited by Toptonic - Butler; 06-12-2012 at 03:03 PM.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    The server can do it since one of the beta updates....
    Tg admins could disable side , global , group and command chat.
    then only CO and SL can place jip markers.
    But it would cause probs in other missions if they needed to use any of the chats

    Removing the range finder wouldn't be a prob.
    But an AT soldier would have one..or the assistant AT would at least

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Personally if I was leading a squad and knew they didn't have the markers I'd have them all copy my map. If I go down and my guys don't know their part in the big plan the squad is basically dead in the water and a potential liability regardless of how skilled the players within are.

    Sure, it's more realistic to have everyone make their own markers rather than all see the ones on side / global etc but in practice all it's really going to do is slow us down in leaving the FOB / COP or wherever we start off.

    I know one of the most frustrating things for me in the past has been not having a map or markers, the Sl dies or dcs and I've got no idea where we are, where we're going and a CO who justly needs us to get moving ASAP but hasn't been babysitting the squad and so doesn't know where we are. Which is fair enough - he ( or she ) shouldn't have to babysit.

    Falluja is pretty bad for this since streets are pretty indistinguishable from one another. Cherno, Takistan etc arent as bad since there's usually a landmark / town / village within sight or not far from.

    Moreover though I think the question of wether it makes the mission more fun or not is the most important question. In my opinion, it's just going to be more hassle than it's worth and doesn't offer any real gameplay advantage.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Agree with u Jacezz.
    It will take time as now takes tame communicate w/o side chat only by radios but give more reality.

    Maybe i've play 2 much at Russian TVT servers where u cant find enemy frequency while u havent enemy radio (they use alternative ACRE where u can randomly change freq, now ACRE fix it 2 in last update), u dont know enemy pos and plans while u havent enemy map. And enemy change freq when they havent contact with one of FTL. And only FTL have map and when he dies his soldiers try to take his long range radio and map from dead body. After this assist FTL take FTL and select next assistant, comunicate with CO and report/request task, explain 2 assistant.

    Runing to marker and navigate by GPS is 2 easy, at war CO may give u wrong coords or wrong direct to obj or u can understand him incorrect and make ur way in wrong direct. I think its fun when u give/hear orders 'move to this tree or build', 'enemy APC at road intersection' but not 'squad move to this mark' or 'CAS on this marks'.

    When u havent ammo u take AK74 from dead enemy, who stop u take map or binoculars from dead enemy commander?

    About time: I think its not CO work to say everybody what color smoke nades/type of bullets/vehs should have each soldier, his work is make plan 4 each SL. As minimum he should give to SLs start attack points 4 each squad, tasks, end/meet pos, callsigns and freqs, deadline. After this each SL make plan 4 each his FT... I mean we always ask CO 'omfg i have IED on road what i should do?!', but its not his job - he give u task to get the point and relax, report him only when u at point and do u lose ur soldiers/power btw or not, how u will get there - its job 4 SLs, who will be 1st in walking column or who will be driver its job 4 FTL. Same with markers, 1st Sq 2 FTL should not have markers of 2nd Sq 1FTL, they should only knows friendly Sq direction, range, task.

    Maybe its not 4 TG ATM. Idk is there English lang servers who make same way where u can c how it looks, in Russian servers u must know Russian lang to play there.

    sry my engl and 2 many letters

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Quote Originally Posted by Chichco View Post
    1) If u dont use it its not mean that 'not really needed', other commanders use it very nice and they have info from recon. And snipers always use sniper rifle, not m16 or m9 with ACOG or red-dot scopes.
    2) I'd like 2 c tow-ropes in vehs. Yeah we can load it, but i think usually it in vehs cargo by default in real life.
    3)And dont give everybody rangefinders (maybe only SL and Recon), give binoculars and let FTLs find info how to use mil-dot system and give range to AT/other. Also maps should have only SL FTL Mortar gunner and Recon.
    Will be perfect if script will check map and delete all side/group/other markers coz its not real 2 when everybody over map can c ur marks, more realistic use MapTools.
    1) Yeah, "Sipers" do. Thats why we are suggesting to add "Squad Designated Marksmans" (SDM), who has acess to M16+ACOG (or other Midrange scopes) and is attached to a squad.

    In my eyes its more useful to have a SDM moving WITH your Squad, instead of having a M24 "Sniper" lying around and doing lone-wolf-super-terminator-sniper-attacks (my personal oppinion).
    Also its taking the fun for some other players, if you just see targets popping up at the map (markers), and you just see dead bodies at AO and hear sniper shots every 2 seconds.
    Sniper is a very useful tool. Buts its not needed always, and its not needed for taking out "regular" infantry.

    Marksmans are for Short- and Midrange attacks. Snipers are mainly Recon, and *if* they are used as "attack" force, they usually killl one or two HVTs (High Value Target) and then just exfiltrate.

    2) Agree. We should use the towing ropes alot more

    3) Agree.


    I also like the idea of *not* using map to just place everything. Using TeamSpeak/Radio to brief the SquadLeaders (not every soldiers) is alot more "realistic", and in my eyes alot more fun.
    Its the job of the leaders to know the important facts. The AT soldier don't needs to see the RPs, LZs and whatnot.
    Squadleaders and Fireteamleaders job is to *lead* their squad. They need the information of where to move, what to engage etc, and its their decision how to lead.

    Also, *not* using map markers for everything makes communications even more important, because you can't just see your enemies popping up on the map.
    I fully agree with Chichco's last post.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    I actually think the ACRE radios help organization out. Fair enough, they were pretty difficult to deal with originally when the mod was fairly new and didn't always work reliably. That's behind us now though and as far as I can see ACRE can add a really nice edge to coms in Arma that I definitely enjoy seeing. Even just the way transmissions sound can add to the overall experience and help to create that 'in a modern day battlefield' feeling. There is a way to split it up so that channels don't broadcast across factions, so BLUFOR need to steal an OPFOR radio to listen in. I've never been able to find a guide / explanation as to how you can get the mod to do this though. There is a mention in old patch notes of the feature going in but no real explanation as to how it works. Probably need to pester one of the ACRE devs / someone in the know to find out more.

    I've had mixed experiences with missions where only FTL's and above have a map. I both like and dislike this, dislike because if there's respawn and you don't know how to get back from the respawn position then you're not going anywhere. Similarly I really dislike not being aware of the situation and what's going on. Situational awareness means survival, if having a map gives me a good idea of the outlying area then I'm going to be more effective in my movement. That said, a well designed mission should accommodate for the fact that not everyone has maps. This also comes down to SLs and FTLs keeping their guys up to date on the situation and making sure they pass info down - for example, the where we're going, what we're doing parts as well as who's nearby us, friendly or foe. Info is ammo, basically.

    Marking out for CAS the exact position of an enemy for the A10 to see is a bit hrrmish though yeah, I'll agree. Still, unless it's on regular there shouldn't be map markers and the grid marked could still be wrong... The pilot could also make a mistake and not approach the target correctly. Lasers pretty much make it all moot point though, if they can see the laser marker they'll know exactly where to hit down to a few meters accuracy and a live indicator within the game world to assist in approach.

    Although the CO technically has the authority to kit out every soldier to his whim it's just not practical. Aside from that I like to hammer in that, above and beyond all else, it's the FTL, SL, CO etc's job to try his best to ensure everyone below him has fun. Similarly, even if I personally think it's common sense to carry no less than 4 smokes and 2 frags on you no matter what kit you carry, that isn't everyones preferred playstyle. So you'll get guys who prefer to use certain weapons, which, if available in the mission, I do believe a leader should try to accommodate. Unless of course you get a medic running around with an M60 or a rifleman with a TAC50... That's just not practical.

    Moreover again, what should be more important in my opinion is whether a weapon is fit for purpose or not. There's a bit of debate in this. I'd quite happily use an M14 as a good all rounder for every situation but there are some who might argue that due to it's low round count and ammo weight it's best as a marksman rifle and not that good in cqb or when maintaining steady movement for prolonged periods. If I'm CO'ing and notice we need some explosives / AT though, I'll ensure to state that I need each squad to fit out appropriately. What measures as appropriate I'll normally leave down to them to decide or say 'at least one x'.

    I wouldn't agree that vehicles should be assigned / taken by SLs though - the CO needs to keep an eye on assets, not just because they are valuable and potentially mission critical, but because not getting involved might end up in confusion. For example, one squad runs off with four HMMVs and leaves the other with just two, squads get mixed up and with no official word to say "Alpha gets this, Bravo gets that" it could boil down into bickering over who needs what asset. The CO needs to make it clear who gets what and if challenged, explain why.

    The IED on the road is a complex issue however. The CO should be aware and then the Convoy lead involved should be able to act within the CO's already given intent. If that intent hasn't been given or the nature of the situation is complicated; i.e. road ahead is completely blocked by IED's.. Then the CO needs to know as it will likely affect the larger operation ( if that convoy movement wasn't the larger operation to start with ). If it's going to be quite a delay in dealing with the IED and therefore a squad won't reach it's destination within the expected time frame then the CO should also be informed as it has an effect on the overall op. Providing it's clear what needs to be done then the CO shouldn't have to get involved himself. Logistical support and keeping things on time is more of an XO job, really. Contact reports and SITREPS should always be sent though - going in and coming out of contact. It's always mission critical that the CO is aware you are in a fight. Unless he's over your shoulder and in the fight himself.

    But yeah, set out destination & route, assign assets, set order of march, reaction to contact, IEDs then fire condition. From then on the CO should typically only need to know if there's a problem. Situation will dictate if this needs to change.


    I disagree regarding the order of march Squad and FT side. Really, FTs and SLs should never be first in a formation. Typical fire team procedure has the Auto rifleman on point, followed by his assistant, then the FTL and then the Rifleman. FTLs & SLs are too valuable to loose and in the event contact is made you want your hardest hitter at the front and returning fire immediately.

    Driving is a little different, it's not a biggie for SLs and FTLs to drive, but if you need to check your map and receive further tasking / orders from the CO then you're gonna have to pull over first, which is impractical. Not a problem if this isn't a concern I guess. As CO or SL I usually find myself checking maps on the way in to review the platoons intended path, check for anything geographically I think would become a problem and then try to spot firing positions and cover in advance. Knowing the layout of the location you are moving to helps a lot when you don't have time to check in a firefight. Info is ammo and all that.

    Not sure I'd use markers to direct FTLs about. Seems much more practical just to say "See that red roofed building on our 175? Move your team there and take positions within." You're going to be nearby each other for the vast majority of the time so being able to directly tell your guys where to go is a legitimate possibility. So yeah, I agree, knowing where they are, how far away they are and what they are doing should be enough. I guess on this point it's info is ammo and excessive markers are just messy?
    Last edited by Jacezz; 06-13-2012 at 02:12 PM. Reason: overuse of the word 'though', though.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    @Andy
    Yeah i remember that. Sniper have orders 'get out from humvee' and 'land bird back to base'. So he paradrop on target, put markers on enemies and trying comunicate with CO, but big distance. So he write in side 'whats ur location' trying work as team but get order 'dont use side'. After 30 mins w/o answer he start sniping enemies and when CO comes
    Also its taking the fun for some other players, if you just see targets popping up at the map (markers), and you just see dead bodies at AO and hear sniper shots every 2 seconds.
    Other CO drop recon team from C130 in the middle of the way in range 1.5 km from road and get info about all enemies from start to end, where they moving and from what side/distance trying attack convoy. Its depend from human how to use finger, put it in nose or open beer.

    Its OK, if its not enough soldiers in ur squad and u need SDM to complete misson ask it from devs, but dont say 'others dont use recon so delete it'. Its not truth.
    BTW do u know power of 5.45 bullet at range... hmm, on what range u wanna use him with M16? U may give him M16 with best-of-the-best-x16-ACOG but wind move this bullet as fly in dist ~400m. What results u wait from him? Hes not able to kill from 1 shot in head, but he able to c laughing enemy face.

    @Jacezz
    Ive try it on 148 and its workin, i can put freq what i need, not from default list of 100. But rly i havent try to comunicate on this freq with other 1, we can try it

    Sry i havent write each step of liders, just wanna say that soldiers should know what they will do in each situation, but not ask every time CO. Only reports but not more simple orders outside of base. And not each soldier should have docs (map, notes) that may be use by enemies. I think u write the same sry my Engl.

    About tactic ive read alot guides and can recommend this 1 as more complete with nice pics

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  15. #53

    Toptonic - Butler's Avatar

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Quote Originally Posted by Chichco View Post
    @Andy
    ts depend from human how to use finger, put it in nose or open beer.

    U may give him M16 with best-of-the-best-x16-ACOG but wind move this bullet as fly in dist ~400m. What results u wait from him? Hes not able to kill from 1 shot in head, but he able to c laughing enemy face.
    lol...


    But in all seriousness, I think recon should stay, and the option for a SDM should be added. This is a MSO mission, which entails versatility. You need to be able to do what you can.

    That being said, realism is a huge factor. As much as I would hate to be that JIP without a map, you can fix this by rigging the JIP markers to be the airdrop location. This way, all a player needs to do is go to the flagpole and select "drop at para drop location" and if one exists, he will go there. If not, a message is sent to the CO and SL's informing them that one is needed.

    Utilizing tools like that can replace the need for using unrealistic methods such as side chat, and even the map on non-authorized players.

    “I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” -Albert Einstein

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    That is a great conversation but lets bring the thread back on topic please. This is for suggestions for the MSO Thank you.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    I'll just say this...patrol ops is a seeder mission, it includes lots of features to make it easy to access and fun to play while you wait for more players, so asking for stuff to be removed due to it being easier or not how it happens in RL is just a stupid response.

    Also remember how you like to play isnt the same as everyone else, if you dont like snipers, take CO and don't let anyone play sniper, simple.

    ALso I'm not sure if Bl1p is still updating the mission

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    Pax'Jarome Malues's Avatar

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    @Chichco: I were talking about Designated Marksmens... usually, sofar my infos of USForces, dont use M24 or any kind of sniperrifle. DMs are using standard infantryweapons like M16A4 with an ACOG or any kind if midrange scope. Thats what i suggested, that any Squad has 1 DM in it instead of 1 single Reconteam.
    And until now I never played a serious mission at MSO where the ReconSquad were used in its actual meaning: RECON. There always wiped out anything that moved and made some markers on the map...

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    Chichco's Avatar

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    @Pax: I still cant understand what difference will be between GL (if im correct he have ACOG 2) and DM? Same bullet, same range, same inaccessibility to change elev/wind params. What range he can recon? U live him alone ahead 100m from squad? It takes >10 mins to look around 4 him, squad w/o scopes can look around faster. And not sure that some1 wanna walk alone ahead convoy 15km as player.
    I think 1 time i play with u and u send me ahead, while team movin by Bird. We have task to destroy Radar. Be4 i was droped u wanna land right on radar while there were around 3 enemy camps with DSHK in each, BMP, some UAZs. But u change ur plans when i put markers. U have a bad memory. And let enybody take CO maybe they'll show u how to use recon. Or ask Dimitrius, hes good to operate with all kind of stuff what he have as CO.

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  25. #58

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Quote Originally Posted by Chichco View Post
    @Pax: I still cant understand what difference will be between GL (if im correct he have ACOG 2) and DM? Same bullet, same range, same inaccessibility to change elev/wind params. What range he can recon? U live him alone ahead 100m from squad? It takes >10 mins to look around 4 him, squad w/o scopes can look around faster. And not sure that some1 wanna walk alone ahead convoy 15km as player.
    I think 1 time i play with u and u send me ahead, while team movin by Bird. We have task to destroy Radar. Be4 i was droped u wanna land right on radar while there were around 3 enemy camps with DSHK in each, BMP, some UAZs. But u change ur plans when i put markers. U have a bad memory. And let enybody take CO maybe they'll show u how to use recon. Or ask Dimitrius, hes good to operate with all kind of stuff what he have as CO.
    The difference is pretty easy, Chichco:

    1. What you are doing is called "LoneWolfing" and has nothing to do with "Sniper", "SDM" or even "teamplay".
    To say it very seriously and honestly, I do not like this kind of gaming.
    If you just lone-wolf around, want to get kills, wanna place markings on the map and don't use proper radio comms, why are you here playing online? Why not Vanilla/SP, or the awesome game called "Sniper"?
    (Off Topic, sorry. Finally need to say that).


    2. Different between "Sniper" and "Marksman"
    a) SNIPER:
    A sniper is a highly trained marksman who operates in one to two man teams which maintain close visual contact with the enemy and engages targets from concealed positions or physical distances exceeding the detection capabilities of the enemy personnel, without being detected. These sniper teams operate independently, with little combat asset support from their parent units. Snipers typically have highly selective and specialized training and possess high-precision rifles, optics and many times, sophisticated communication assets to feed valuable combat information back to their units.
    [...]
    Generally, a sniper's primary function in warfare is to provide detailed reconnaissance from a concealed position and, if necessary, to reduce the enemy's fighting ability by striking at high value targets (especially officers, communication and other personnel) and in the process pinning down and demoralizing the enemy.

    Source: Wikipedia.org
    b) MARKSMAN:
    A marksman is a person who is skilled in precision, or a sharpshooter shooting, using projectile weapons, such as with a rifle but most commonly with a designated marksman rifle and/or a sniper rifle, to shoot at long range targets. The main difference between a marksman and a normal sniper is that a marksman is usually considered an organic part of a team of soldiers, whereas regular snipers tend to work alone or with other snipers. In the military, marksmen are sometimes attached to an infantry squad where they take accurate long-range shots at valuable targets as needed, thus extending the reach of the squad.
    [...]
    Within the United States military, a marksman in the U.S. Army is referred to as "Squad Designated Marksman" (SDM), and a marksman in the Marines is called a "Designated Marksman" (DM).
    [...]
    A "Squad Designated Marksman" or a "Designated Marksman" should not be confused with a regular sniper. United States marksmen rarely operate individually. Snipers are often deployed for specific objectives in teams consisting of snipers and observers. The marksman, however, operates as a regular member within a unit where his skills are called upon whenever the need for accurate shooting arises in the normal course of operations.

    Source: Wikipedia.org

    I hope you understand it now, Chicho =)


    Back to topic:
    I want to remove the "Recon Sniper Team", because
    a) we have no HVT missions/targets were a "Sniper" is actually needed,
    b) he don't gets deployed properly, he just gets send (or sends himself) ahead; lone-wolfing, placing markers on the map and killing everything that moves inside the red circle on the map,
    c) nobody (who actually takes the role) knows what to do as "Recon team". People think its an "awesome-terminator-killing-machine",
    d) Most times we have very few people, and its not very useful to split these people up again.

    Thats why I would like to have a "Squad Designated Marksman". This person would be moving with our Squad (no lone-wolf), and would be more effective (in my eyes).


    PS: Yes, M24 is a "Sniper" rifle, but not the version (with this scope) on Patrol Ops. Its actually a "Marskman" rifle.

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  27. #59

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    I had quite a few talks about adding a sniper back into the mission.
    At the time I did say that it encourages lone wolf.
    But I was told that because of the way TG is organised that a lone wolf would not be possible.

    It seems I was right to have bad feelings about adding the sniper class back into the mission.

    its easily removable if it is causing too many problems.

    The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd.

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    Re: PATROL OPS MSO Suggestions and requests

    Hi adept m8

    Once I finish playing dayz none stop i will update the mission

    Its just nice atm to be a player rather than a mission editor.

    The path of my life is strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd.

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