Re: Why So Little TvT?

**E-Male** · 10-07-2008, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Sam Hoy

So I don't think it should be a general rule to play only respawn, it really should be mission dependent.

Very good clarification of the issues, Sam.

Lets leave aside the issue of respawn as a map/mission/designer variable.

We have seen many rounds of maps that are enjoyable and do not allow respawn (such as Sam's cyrpticaly named 'Findger' map), so it remains a reasonable design choice to create a TvT map without respawn.

**tHa_KhAn** · 10-07-2008, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sam Hoy

I However, if the TvT is truly objective based then the team that does nothing will lose.

I think these types of missions have the most merit for TvT, especially in an open environment. Missions with objectives that are not just kill the other side give an opportunity to use a greater array of tactics than those for short range skirmishes.

**Dslyecxi** · 10-07-2008, 08:06 PM

It's worth noting that there is a distinct chunk of the ArmA population (I won't even try to put it into a percentage) that is more interested in coop than TvT. Some people won't even play TvT - the reasons for it vary, but the result is the same. If you look through the ArmA community, you'll find many squads/clans that display this to an extreme - example being something like a squad of 20 people who have it in their "mission statement" (so to speak) that they play coop only and never TvT.

Some people do not like the competitive nature of TvT. This can manifest itself by seeing a server go from, say, 30 people during a coop, to 20 (or less) when switching to "serious" TvT (meaning - no respawn, or heavily penalized respawn). Part of this has to do with the difficulty level. Fighting humans is harder for a variety of reasons, and for some, that is outside of their comfort zone. Others just do not want to shoot at their "buddies" - they want the "casual camaraderie" that comes from coop and aren't interested in seeing things slip into a more them-vs-us mentality. The wrong attitudes from players in TvT can also sour things very quickly - think of the "I pwned j00!" nonsense from other games, apply it to ArmA, and you can easily imagine a number of people being turned off by an individual's behavior.

TvT is about more than leadership, player skill, etc. It is about keeping it fun - once things start to slip into the "too serious" category, players bleed off, and as players bleed away, TvT goes from a real possibility to an untenable situation simply by virtue of numbers. More than anything else, a positive atmosphere and attitude must be the standard for successful TvT where everyone is of different skill levels, and not everyone necessarily has the best "ArmA self-confidence". All the mission design, skill, and in-game leadership in the world won't save you when this fundamental aspect is lacking.

Switching away from that aspect of it...

I am interested in seeing TG venture more and more into TvT. An hour's worth of TvT combat, in the right mission type, is worth far more in skill- and team-building than several hours worth of cooperative gaming. When your opponent is a thinking person and not an exploitable AI, things become much more demanding (assuming competent opponents

), and many considerations must be made that do not matter with AI. Movement techniques, suppression, and tight teamwork means a great deal against humans. It's a whole new world of gameplay.

As to the future of TG TvT, personally, I would like to get some joint stuff happening with TG and ShackTac. Assume a turnout of 20-30 people from TG, and 45-60 from ShackTac, and you have from 65-90 people. At that playercount, TvT has all sorts of awesome potential. There are many missions we have right now that would be great to play with TG, and many more could be created specifically for such events, both by TG and ST mission makers. It could be loads of fun, provided that all involved parties approach it with the right mindset - meaning, not an "Us vs Them" mentality, but rather one of mutual understanding, learning, and a willingness to try something a bit different than the norm.

It could be great. It's more a question of organizing it than anything else, and ensuring that there is an interest from the TG membership to pursue such a thing.

**KoopaTroopa** · 10-08-2008, 06:40 AM

It's worked in the past. A small group of TG ArmA players participated in a weekly TvT campaign entitled "ArmA Mid-Week Battles". There were many participants from many groups of players from various clans and player groups that participate in Armed Assault. It was quite fun, but the timeslot (Wednesday evenings) really hurt participation, and the level of coordination required to run something on that scale requires a LOT of cat-herding. Keep in mind I'm talking about the coordination of the entire event. Getting the TG dudes together was easy. The bigger it gets, the tougher it gets. Simply starting on time was a seemingly-hopeless endeavor.

**Long Bow** · 10-08-2008, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Gillespie

It's worked in the past. A small group of TG ArmA players participated in a weekly TvT campaign entitled "ArmA Mid-Week Battles". There were many participants from many groups of players from various clans and player groups that participate in Armed Assault. It was quite fun, but the timeslot (Wednesday evenings) really hurt participation, and the level of coordination required to run something on that scale requires a LOT of cat-herding. Keep in mind I'm talking about the coordination of the entire event. Getting the TG dudes together was easy. The bigger it gets, the tougher it gets. Simply starting on time was a seemingly-hopeless endeavor.

I remember those Gillespie

I have to agree with you about the "Cat Hearding" as well. I played in several of those events and NEVER saw the game go "live" before we were 45 minutes to an hour past the start time. It was a huge undertaking that left me with mixed feelings on large scale TvT. In theory I love the idea, but so far in practice it doesn't deliver (well it did deliver huge lag, server crashes etc.

)

Perhaps since TG and ShakTac are already well organised groups the situation will run smoother and actually deliver a quality large scale TvT?

As others have said the new Avgani map seems to be shaping up as a nice TvT environment for TG.

**beita** · 10-08-2008, 11:43 AM

I think the "joint ops" approach would be best, a 60 player game is what will make TvT enjoyable, provided it is organized. If a 60 player game was played every 2 weeks (maybe more, if everyone is interested enough), that would be great.

Originally Posted by Long Bow

...

As others have said the new Avgani map seems to be shaping up as a nice TvT environment for TG.

I REALLY think we shouldn't jump straight into the hardest possible environment for combat for our beginning TvT sessions. Avgani is a great island, the creator spent a lot of time making the town realistic.

But, for a group that the majority has little to no experience in a large scale TvT environment, urban warfare is going to frustrate a LOT of people. You need to be very organized and quick to react and make decisions at ALL levels of your organization. Platoon lead can't take 3 minutes to make a decision on what to do next, in 3 minutes, 4 enemy soldiers could have killed 20 of yours easily.

With that said, I will play anything. I would strongly prefer a respawn TvT (it will be more forgiving for the players new to TvT) and something in a more open area to make coordination a little bit easier.

**tHa_KhAn** · 10-08-2008, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by beita

With that said, I will play anything. I would strongly prefer a respawn TvT (it will be more forgiving for the players new to TvT) and something in a more open area to make coordination a little bit easier.

A little Warfare? or too open?

me <3 Warfare/CTI

**Sam Hoy** · 10-08-2008, 12:28 PM

In more broad terms, and the answer to the main question of the thread, why so little TVT? In my mind its a simple game of numbers. Server population, even on weekends is rarely exceeding 15-20 players. With 15 players that's about 2 sections and a decent game of coop. Now, if you divide the 15 or so players between two teams its 8 and 7, not only is that unbalanced but that's just not enough players to have consistent contact besides a few second one-group-spots-the-other firefight. I think, barring organized events the only feasible impromptu TVT we could have is a mixed TVT-COOP where there is a main player-based force against a primarily AI force with a human RPG or MG or special forces group mixed in.

**jex** · 10-08-2008, 01:21 PM

1) there will be no lone wolfers

This shouldn't need to be stated as we don't operate with these player types here.

As Sam said, it's a numbers thing and I think we all relish the thought of 30 v 30 but not so much 8 v 7.

Not sure if it's already been said but perhaps the sunday event could be TvT every 2 weeks? With Shack Tac adding to it we should get a good game in

**tHa_KhAn** · 10-08-2008, 03:22 PM

I think we once did a rotation of events like that and even rotated game types during a few sessions. Just a general reminder, the TG event is open to all. Shacktac is more than welcome to come and join in, as an open event I would not think any formal invitation is needed.

**deathknight** · 10-09-2008, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Long Bow

I remember those Gillespie

I have to agree with you about the "Cat Hearding" as well. I played in several of those events and NEVER saw the game go "live" before we were 45 minutes to an hour past the start time. It was a huge undertaking that left me with mixed feelings on large scale TvT. In theory I love the idea, but so far in practice it doesn't deliver (well it did deliver huge lag, server crashes etc.

)

Perhaps since TG and ShakTac are already well organised groups the situation will run smoother and actually deliver a quality large scale TvT?

As others have said the new Avgani map seems to be shaping up as a nice TvT environment for TG.

I think this can be avoided by distributing the list of of who will be on what team and what position b4 and then having ppl join in staggered groups b4 the mission

plans can be made on ts during the time and of course adjustments can be made if ppl aren't able to make it

**Long Bow** · 10-10-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by deathknight

I think this can be avoided by distributing the list of of who will be on what team and what position b4 and then having ppl join in staggered groups b4 the mission

plans can be made on ts during the time and of course adjustments can be made if ppl aren't able to make it

The mid-week events were very well organised in that there were rosters ahead of time, a command structure in place and planes drawn up in advance. It just always had problems because a few people woudn't show up and then we had to shuffle people around, then the server would lock up or crash or had to be reset etc.

Again, I love the idea of it but there was a lot of headaches with the large TvT logistaclly speaking.

**Xmaster** · 10-10-2008, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Long Bow

The mid-week events were very well organised in that there were rosters ahead of time, a command structure in place and planes drawn up in advance. It just always had problems because a few people woudn't show up and then we had to shuffle people around, then the server would lock up or crash or had to be reset etc.

Again, I love the idea of it but there was a lot of headaches with the large TvT logistaclly speaking.

Yeah but it could be easily done for smaller events. Especially when they're TvT.

**Tobruk** · 10-10-2008, 05:39 PM

With respect to TVT playing, has anyone played in the Theatre of War (TOW) sessions? I have wanted to try this but Sunday afternoon in North America is not a good time for me.

Perhaps there are some experiences we could learn from?

I would tend to agree with Long Bow. I participated in a couple of the Mid-Week sessions, but they were a real challenge organizationally and technically. Waiting up to 30 minutes for a game to start is not fun.

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