Sunday Event - Operation Black Falcon - Page 3

Igor · 04-01-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackdog1-22 Reg.SAS

I can confirm that we will certainly try to at least give the player taking the CO role at least a day with the briefing at least. But for example, my next mission is an event mission and under no circumstances is this going to be released to the CO until it's go time. The idea being, the squad leaders get on the ground and decide their plan of action there and then.

And if anyone says that is not realistic and you have intentions on going into the armed forces....get used to it now!

I cannot remember the numbers of times I sat in a place and said "what the F... are we doing here?"

Hurry UP!......... and wait. That's what it always seems like to me. Disseminating orders can be a tough process. It's important to be patient.
Maybe the CO needs to back-brief the SLs and run an inspection. Pick a couple of joe from different squads/fireteams and ask what is the mission? What is the axis of advance you are taking? What is your sqd/ft's role in the mission (support, assault, demo, recon, blocking, screening, etc.)? Whatever else he sees the need to ask (Ex: do you have the correct equipment? Do your squad have an Aid and Litter team? What should you do if your SL dies? What is the plan if you take sniper fire, if you take indirect, if you encounter a near side ambush, if you hit an IED?)

It seems to me that the level of information should be left to the mission designer. Depending on the "spirit" of the mission you can give the CO a detailed view of the mission (for example: A well-planned raid or an deliberate ambush) or less detail (ex: A hasty attack or a movement-to-contact)

I believe time and place of OPORD should be at the briefing screen before you start mission or if you are in a secure area (a FOB or assembly-area for instance), the mission can start and the CO can brief in-game. I'm not sure how people would like to show up on Fri and receive orders. Perhaps the CO could post the WARNO and OPORD on the forums.

The CO could also run a rehearsal of the entire patrol from start to finish (step drill) and brief contingencies before the mission begins (succession of command, sniper fire, IED, near/far side ambush, surrending soldiers, ROEs, etc)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angryson

Man, that's my bible, lol

I have to admit, I got a little teary eyed when they took away my battle drills.

Battle-drills will never die for me. Just as a football team trains for the basics, I like the simplicity of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnO

Ghost02 or anybody else I have the current updated copy of FM-3-21.8 Mar 2007 Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad, which replaces FM 7-8 and it is approved for public released, distribution is unlimited.

FM 7-8 for life

, I like the cold-war vietnam style of training

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCpl. Soto

Ghost02 was rushed and he is new and has probably had 0 training on tactical combat so leading a plt would be difficult, especially not being given the time to plan. As for him not being responsible for telling everyone what plan he came up with during the time he was given, he is responsible, that is his purpose in a mision as op commander. Just something to remember is all, honestly the Op Commander shouldn't even fire one shot because he is trying to keep his people in order and focused on the obj.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angryson

As commander part of your job it to coordinated movement and fires between your subordinates. You don't need to be the point man, and you don't need to be firing, your sole purpose in life is to manage the chaos and issue orders.

One good thing about Ghost is he will step up. Kudos brother.
I disagree about leading from the front. Everytime I've been PL, I've gotten at least a couple of kills. At/near the front, you have eyes on what is occuring in real-time. When I led the Mar 22 event, I relied on Ghost and then Beta, my PSGs to keep me informed of the support's status while I was with the assault.
Maybe it's just the platoon-level leadership, but I sincerely believe the commander should be in the fight pulling his own weight (putting down fires, popping smokes, etc.)
Source: LTG Hal Moore
.

beita · 04-01-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor

...

Maybe it's just the platoon-level leadership, but I sincerely believe the commander should be in the fight pulling his own weight (putting down fires, popping smokes, etc.)

...

Have to say from my experience I agree with this.

You CAN lead a Platoon from the rear, but it is a lot slower and, depending on the situation, can cause more casualties. You simply cannot get a fast enough flow of important information from your leaders while they are in contact. They are worried about other things, like leading the troops in their command, sending contact reports and info up the chain of command takes a back seat to keeping people alive, as it should be.

When you lead from the front (not the bleeding edge), you don't need to be fed all the information over a radio, you can SEE where the contacts are and what they are doing. That instantaneous info gathering is very important in making quick and sound decisions, which I believe are KEY to the success of any mission. A 1 minute plan that could run into problems is FAR better than a 10 minute plan that's perfect, in my opinion.

Angryson · 04-01-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igor

I disagree about leading from the front. Everytime I've been PL, I've gotten at least a couple of kills. At/near the front, you have eyes on what is occuring in real-time. When I led the Mar 22 event, I relied on Ghost and then Beta, my PSGs to keep me informed of the support's status while I was with the assault.
Maybe it's just the platoon-level leadership, but I sincerely believe the commander should be in the fight pulling his own weight (putting down fires, popping smokes, etc.)

Sir, the term leading from the front can be misleading. I know Battle Drill 1 says the PL will go with the assault element, which looks good on paper and is hooah in training. In reality, the PL needs to be behind the assault element, in a place where he can observe their movement, report to higher and control fires/TAC air. I know as a squad leader nothing is more irritating than having a PL that thinks he is being a good leader because he is on top of my squad when we are kicking doors. That is not the PLs place. When we raid a house the PL stays off of the OBJ until it is clear and the detainees have been secured. Why? Have you ever seen an HBIED? That's why. The PL is useless if he's dead, and no one like a dead PL. To me, my PL is leading from the front because he is out on mission with us and not hiding out on the COP, he doesn't need to kick doors, that's my job, and he doesn't need to shoot f***ers in the face because that is my job too. His job is be out there to coordinate movement between SQDs and Vics and to report to higher. A good PL will be safe 2-3 houses behind the lead SQD and still be able to manage the fight with out getting himself shot. I hate to type and run, but I have to go to work.

JohnO · 04-01-2009, 11:34 AM

Just to add to this, in my Military Library of FMs I also have for anyone's enjoyment to read, which by the way if you do read them, it may not make you into a Patton or Rommel

All of these FMs are approved for Public release; Distribution is unlimited.

FM 3-06.11 (FM 90-10-1) Feb 2002
Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain

*FM 3-21.71 (FM 7-7J) Aug 2002
Mechanized Infantry Platoon and Squad (Bradley)

*FM 3-21.9 Dec 2002
Stryker Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad

FM 3-21.8 (FM7-8) Mar 2007
Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad

FM 3-21.10 Jul 2006
Infantry Rifle Company

FM 90-4 Mar 1987
Air Assault Operations

FM 3-90 Jul 2001
Tactics

* denotes these FMs are being rewritten.

Again if there is any interest I will post them in my ftp site soon. Now before any one states, sure I can get these from globalsecurity.com, that is correct but they may not be single pdfs or their outdated.

LCpl. Soto · 04-01-2009, 11:45 AM

We were by no means saying he shouldn't be with his plt. I was just saying that he shouldn't of been at the verry front of the unit as he was in the mission. No need for the plt leader to be point man or spearhead the assault as he did. What good is a plt leader if he dies? As for not shooting, he may or may not get to shoot. If the platoon needs more managing, as an untrained platoon would need, then he will be more focused on managing and not have much time for shooting. In RL or a trained game unit, then the plt commander better be with the unit and better be fighting (as in not hiding when you are being attacked). Also since his guys will at the least have a good idea on how to do their jobs, the PL won't have to micro manage them. The way it is now though, the commander is leading an untrained unit of people who all haven't been in the same squad let alone fireteam before. If you survive most of the missions you lead and they are successful in game, then by all means lead from the front of the formation. Unless you are saying the front is being with your men, then this is a misscommunication because I am refering to the litteral front of a formation like was done on this event. Even in the convoy to the attack staging area, both the leaders from the independents and bluefor were in the two lead vehicles.

P.S. in any mission, if the leader dies early on but the mission was a success, it was because of good squadleaders and ftl's seeing it through. It's not because the plt commander was on the ball... he was dead.

**Blackdog1** · 04-01-2009, 03:18 PM

Personally, I will make a decision where to put myself as PCO, depending on the mission. For example, many of Beta's missions used the area north of Corazol to Obregan and hills 44 and 45 just North of Corazol provide superb viewing capability of pretty much the whole battle area. I like to get high to watch different squads advance and if I see them heading into the wrong direction or getting close to another friendly squad or moving toward an enemy position that they may not see, I can manouvre them accordingly.

This obviously becomes a great deal harder when in the Urban environment, but again I will often try to find the highest overwatch point and manage contact reports and information from my SL's.

Of course a mission with just 1 squad and you are likely to be involved in the thick of it.

Igor · 04-01-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angryson

Sir, the term leading from the front can be misleading. I know Battle Drill 1 says the PL will go with the assault element, which looks good on paper and is hooah in training. In reality, the PL needs to be behind the assault element, in a place where he can observe their movement, report to higher and control fires/TAC air. I know as a squad leader nothing is more irritating than having a PL that thinks he is being a good leader because he is on top of my squad when we are kicking doors. That is not the PLs place. When we raid a house the PL stays off of the OBJ until it is clear and the detainees have been secured. Why? Have you ever seen an HBIED? That's why. The PL is useless if he's dead, and no one like a dead PL. To me, my PL is leading from the front because he is out on mission with us and not hiding out on the COP, he doesn't need to kick doors, that's my job, and he doesn't need to shoot f***ers in the face because that is my job too. His job is be out there to coordinate movement between SQDs and Vics and to report to higher. A good PL will be safe 2-3 houses behind the lead SQD and still be able to manage the fight with out getting himself shot. I hate to type and run, but I have to go to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LCpl. Soto

We were by no means saying he shouldn't be with his plt. I was just saying that he shouldn't of been at the verry front of the unit as he was in the mission. No need for the plt leader to be point man or spearhead the assault as he did. What good is a plt leader if he dies? As for not shooting, he may or may not get to shoot. If the platoon needs more managing, as an untrained platoon would need, then he will be more focused on managing and not have much time for shooting. In RL or a trained game unit, then the plt commander better be with the unit and better be fighting (as in not hiding when you are being attacked). Also since his guys will at the least have a good idea on how to do their jobs, the PL won't have to micro manage them. The way it is now though, the commander is leading an untrained unit of people who all haven't been in the same squad let alone fireteam before. If you survive most of the missions you lead and they are successful in game, then by all means lead from the front of the formation. Unless you are saying the front is being with your men, then this is a misscommunication because I am refering to the litteral front of a formation like was done on this event. Even in the convoy to the attack staging area, both the leaders from the independents and bluefor were in the two lead vehicles.

P.S. in any mission, if the leader dies early on but the mission was a success, it was because of good squadleaders and ftl's seeing it through. It's not because the plt commander was on the ball... he was dead.

Good points. Completely agree with you guys.
I think I misunderstood what you guys were saying.
I did not mean to sound like I think the PL should be searching EPWs, pulling security on line, clearing buildings, treating wounded, etc. What I meant to say is that the PL should not be 1km away at a CP and ordering the sqds around.
However, that being said, the PL, the PSG, and the medics are still riflemen at the end of the day and should engage targets of opportunity provided they are not busy with other stuff (I know, I know, the old Marine ideology, but every marine is a rifleman is a good rule of thumb).
Sorry, but it makes me happy to put some fires down

.

On a side note; Wow! Both leaders were in the lead vehicles…? Maybe one could be for command and control purposes (to make sure the element gets to the right place, “follow me”)…

Here’s an example of what I think of as leading from the front as the PL using an actual mission that was run. The following narration is based on what happened during the Mar 22 event. Please note, I was never the first guy onto an OBJ and I generally hung behind the assaulting element as Angryson pointed out, but I still was in the fight, not struck somewhere with my head in the map.

22 ~1800EST? MAR 2009

After the first failed mission, we played another. It was a light INF attack on an enemy held town, Bajo Valor.

What was supposed to happen:
My intent was to place a support element consisting of C (rifle sqd), D (weapons sqd), two medics, and the PSG, beta, on hill 47 ~250 meters SW of the OBJ. Once I gave the signal, they would begin laying fires down on the southern portion of the town. Then an assault element consisting of myself, the PL, one medic, A (rifle sqd), and B (rifle sqd) would attack from the SE. Once in town, the assault team would cover the support team as they moved to a tree line west of town. There the support element would establish a support-by-fire position and begin laying down fires on the northern part of town. Then the assault would attack from the South and clear to the North. We didn’t have any objective other than to inflict high casualties against the enemy, so no actions-on the OBJ.

What actually happened:
Mission began and we loaded up into trucks. We moved a klick to the SE and established a rally point. The trucks were pulled into defilade and everyone dismounted. While at the ORP, I had the weapons squad rehearse putting together the m2 since I had heard rumors it is broken. It turns out the ammo would not load, so I told them to just leave it. Meanwhile, I had the squads pulling security to the Northwest to East since we were on the coast line. Some folks on the eastern portion of the line spotted enemy and engaged them. I ran over there and saw they had killed them, so Charlie mike. I ordered the support element to move into place. Unfortunately there were enemy on hill 47 and the assault element switched to a support role and covered the support element as they assaulted the hill. The hill was taken, no problem. Since I did not have time for a leader’s recon (I didn’t want to make people wait), I improvised by taking myself and the medic to the South of town about 250 meters away. I ordered the support element to begin laying down fires and they lit up the OBJ. From where I was, I had eyes on the OBJ and could see what the support element was engaging (I had binos). I took a medic with me for security and we saw about 5 guys running on the OBJ. I went ahead and began putting down fires. I killed 2 and the medic killed 1. In the meantime, while myself and the medic got eyes-on, I had ordered A and B to flank to the South and East until they were near the coast. A was to handrail the coast and stay in defilade while B continued in a chump of trees and bushes 100 m West of the coastline. A would be the main effort and I ordered Lq. Snake to seize the objective. Bravo would follow.
See picture:

As Alpha and Bravo seized the OBJ I told the support element to shift fires to the north, and when I SAW (b/c I had eyes on) the assault elements were about to enter town I had the support element lift fires.
I then ordered the support element to move to their second SBF position. I took the medic and moved into town. A and B were then ordered to establish an attack-by-fire position and cover C and D approach. See picture

While in town, guys began reporting they heard armor. I quickly announced on side channel that everyone in town should hide (little to no AT weapons, one rpg). A T72 rolled by us on the road about 5 meters away. It continued on without seeing us and once it got far enough away, a member of the weapons sqd used his AT weapon and destroyed it. (Whew! The support element was in the middle of crossing the LDA and I guess we lucked out) The support element got in place and began taking heavy-mg fire from the northern portion of town. I quickly ordered the assault element to attack and while the support laid down fire, the assault seized the obj. I was with the assault, but I was trailing slightly.
See picture

However, I still popped smoke and even threw a frag into one of the mg-nests (3rd kill baby), so you can lead and still get into the fight (you don’t have to have your map out the whole time; give the SLs a task and let them execute, don’t micromanage, this method gives you time to supervise what is happening and even lets you squeeze off a couple of shots).
Victory

Sustains:
1. My PSG beta was awesome. He kept the support element fires up, treated wounded, and even bought up ammo from the rear. He also kept me aware of what was going on up on that hill. Good job!
2. Basic riflemen were awe-inspiring; their initiative was excellent, I saw guys pulling security in the right directions, throwing smoke, and effectively closing with and destroying the enemy.
3. I don’t think we had too many issues with comms

Improves:
1. Maybe next time I will have the AT weapons a little closer to the OBJ
2. Don’t put support element too close to enemy, they were getting ate up by the mg-nests.
3. Next time I won’t run rehearsals at the ORP and instead run them at the AA, we ended up getting engaged at the ORP.
4. Mission was bugged, wouldn’t say we won

JohnO · 04-02-2009, 10:45 AM

Wow, haven't heard the term "Charlie Mike" for a long time