Dslyecxi

Here's a handy thing to remember in the future.

If a town is full of enemy armor and other red radar contacts, it is a terrible idea to get into an enemy vehicle regardless of what you think the situation is. If you DO get in a vehicle, you should be screaming it at the top of your lungs via radio and text the entire time you are in it and get out ASAP. I will never feel the slightest bit sorry for any TK that happens from something like that. The suggestions that were given afterwards as to how to "avoid" such a situation in the future were ridiculous as well. The only way to reliably prevent that from happening is to NOT get in enemy vehicles for any reason.

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John CANavar

Alhtough you are right, there is also mistake on your part Dsl.

You were not in touch with Air Ops Coordinator. I had no idea you were piloting an AH-6. As you have seen many times on our server, we have a fully operational TS structure based on what you developed at ST. Air elements has units codes and are in full coordination with ground units.

For future reference, please remember to get in touch with Air Ops Coordinator and assigned a unit code. Air Ops Coordinator will be in touch with ground troops and will be aware of a stolen enemy vehicle via command channel. This info will be passed to CAS units in the area and will avoid friendly fire.

tHa_KhAn

In our server guide and other documents, we have some procedures to avoid these incidents. John pointed out the Air Element Coordinator, but we also say CAS is a support role only. Meaning when an organized structure is in place and not just a few people mucking about, CAS should only engage when called. There is no weapon free CAS unless advised by the Air Element leader and that is only in specified areas for specified durations.

*edit* a better example would be when friendly infantry has moved into the urban environment, many times they disable rather than destroy enemy vehicles. Specifically UAZ's and Tanks. UAZ's are often engaged with small arms as the gunner is the dangerous part. The M136 often is not enough to completely destroy the T-72's. These vehicles are often used as cover more than as an actual weapons platform. This is where our views on CAS holding for specific targets are focused. Early on we had many cases of friendly infantry being wiped off the map because they were too close to a abandoned vehicle and free lance CAS just saw red and came in guns blazing.

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bobik

I had alot of fun during these battles. I really enjoyed all the teamwork and coordination between the infantry squads and air element.

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Dslyecxi

Sitting in the air channel on channel commander is about 90% of the way there. The only thing lacking is getting a "unit code" which would have honestly accomplished nothing in that situation. Unless this person specifically whispered to you and you alone (something which I think is a bad idea to begin with), I would have heard them say they were in an enemy vehicle. They didn't from what I heard. Are you suggesting that every single time a CAS aircraft is going to make a run that they clear it with every squad on the server? If so, that's going to cripple CAS responsiveness.

I understand what your intent is, but considering the situation, I don't think that had much relevance. I have done plenty of successful CAS on the TG server simply by asking questions, getting a feel for the movements of friendly forces and the front lines, and being careful with weapon employment.

The situation at the time of this incident was that friendly forces had yet to make any significant penetration into town. There was little coordination present on chan comm. Ground units seemed disorganized at best. There were probably 10-15 red blips on the radar in that town. I picked one on the edge of town, did a dry run to see what it was, then came back in hot with very precise rocket placement. I was shocked that someone had jumped into an enemy vehicle in such a fashion, but I let it go after a few lines over chat. The only reason I'm posting about it now is because someone decided to call me out by name (something which you may have noticed I've personally avoided doing here, because it only causes issues).

I can't think of a single time I've done a CAS run in an urban environment where friendlies were potentially nearby that I didn't get full eyes-on, that's-a-badguy FF ID before putting rounds down. As long as people aren't doing stupid things (ie getting in enemy tanks in an enemy-heavy area), it works out just fine. Hell, there was a time a few days ago where I spent about 15 minutes trying to confirm with ground forces that nobody was in a disabled T-72, since it was clear from troop movements that ground had swept past the position already. When the situation makes it feasible that a friendly may be in or near an enemy vehicle, it makes sense to triple-check. When there is no good reason for them to be there (as in the mentioned incident), no, it doesn't really make sense to do more than a positive ID on the vehicle before scrapping it.

Anyhow. As to the suggestion of CAS being by request only, let me remind you that many, many players are not interested in working with air. This was shown very clearly last night (or the night before?) when I attempted to get an airstrike on an enemy T-72. Despite repeated, and I mean repeated calls to all infantry that they needed to stay clear of the T-72, at least two people refused to listen and continued to try to close with it and take it out with AT4s. This was a "by the book" CAS call, and that aspect of the TG playerbase refused to allow it. If that's the kind of foolishness that is to be expected when coordinating with the ground for CAS, I think you may find a shortage of willing pilots once the umpteenth strike is called off under similar circumstances.

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John CANavar

Dsl,

Air Ops Coordinator and PL are the decision makers. Whether you hear a call or not doesnt matter. I have never seen anyone abusing these roles to play the god. As part of role playing and command structure, none of us mind getting orders/instructions from someone else. I hope you have no problem with this because that's the way it goes on our server. This is for teamwork and coordination as well as fair play. It can also be automated by coordinator as I usually do in transport (Ex. BH1 this transport call is your, LB1 next one is yours). But no matter how it works, we respect and operate according to plans of the coordinators. This is a proven system that works very well.

Feel free to step up if you wish. But if you dont, you are supposed to follow the instructions/orders of someone who does. As you see, sitting in channel is not 90%; it is only 50% of communication/teamwork.

Dslyecxi

So for the purposes of "roleplay" you're saying that CAS should not prep a city before the infantry have hit it? Am I understanding you right? Every little action that CAS ever takes has to be cleared up the chain? "Sir, there's a PK UAZ firing on me at grid Gi43, request permission to return f-" ...kaboom, bird down?

There's a point where you have to trust the person slinging rounds downrange to know what's going on. The point of any rules should be to put them in situations that are as straightforward as possible, and one thing that helps this immensely is prohibiting people from taking enemy vehicles. There's a pretty significant chance of error even when using voice comms, as has been proven countless times before on the server. Better to avoid it from the root than hamper all air ops because someone may be doing something they shouldn't be doing.

It certainly does. With good comms, everyone on command should hear something as important as "Billy decided to jump into a T-72, please don't blow it up while I try to talk him out of it".

I'm not sure what I said that elicited this response.

I'm not sure what I said that elicited this response. If someone is actively commanding, I have no problem listening to them. Do I think I should be asking them if I can take out an enemy tank? No, I don't. I think that would slow comms down to the point that timely CAS action would be hindered, possibly to the extent of causing friendly KIAs from inaction.

You didn't really acknowledge the majority of the points made in my post. You've reiterated how you think the ideal TG Evo game should play out, and how you envision the command stuff working, but that is not really the point of what I posted. If your answer to what I'm saying is "All is solved by the platoon commander/coordinator", well, I think that's simply wrong and ignores how recklessly stupid it is to occupy an enemy vehicle in an overwhelmingly hostile environment.

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John CANavar

We really dont need to go in a long discussion over this Dsl. Let me try to summarize.

If an Air Ops is calling all air units to join Air Element channel, they should. If he is asking for everyone to speak up for unit code/mission assignment, they should. And without him giving clearance to attack a city, none of the attack choppers should attack.

These are vary basic rules and expectations from teamplayers. In that TKing incident, Air Ops Coordinator wasnt aware that he had an AH-6 in the area because you were silent in TS channel. Proper way to engage that target would be:

Pilot: "This is AH-6...SE of Cayo...Request clearance to engage"

Then Air Ops Coordinator would check it with ground squad operating in the area and you would not need to ask permission to engage this and that. Take whatever target is in range. Honestly, I dont see any problem with this kind of teamwork and communication.

Dslyecxi

That's all well and good, but you still are ignoring the source of the problem, and the point of my post. People are getting into enemy vehicles for no good reason and they're getting killed because of it. It happened at least three times that I saw last night, and each time resulted in friendly fire.

Here's a no-kidding honest-to-god solution that will work:
DON'T OCCUPY ENEMY VEHICLES, PERIOD.

Simple! One line, bam, problem solved!

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tHa_KhAn

It's not just occupation of enemy vehicles that causes these instances. It's proximity to disabled or abandoned enemy vehicles that are a bigger problem. This is why we try to limit CAS. The entire mission of Evolution can be completed easily without a single attack aircraft in the sky. Is that going to happen,no probably not with all the CAS pilots around. We have experimented with different situations and having CAS hold outside of the area of engagement(in a safe zone, so no need to defend except KA-50 or SU-34) works well. If the pilot finds this boring or a waste, there are other missions or roles they can undertake in the server that are more team oriented and have less of an affect on the majority of players.

THe problem with disabled or abandoned vehicles showing red in the radar is that CAS often thinks these are live targets. Usually these vehicles are disabled by infantry that do not fully destroy the target due to lack of ammunition or proper equipment. These vehicles then pose a threat for friendly fire incidents just by proximity. Your suggetion would then have to be broaden to eliminate friendlies from moving near enemy vehicles. These enemy vehicles often provide excellent cover for crossing streets or clearing intersections. Avoiding them would be a waste.

Our view to have CAS on a leash does not hinder CAS responsivness. It does however greatly reduce the likely hood that there will be a CAS friendly fire incident.

As to the specific incident this discussion arose, I witnessed your AH-6 over a hostile city with Anti-air coverage still up. After the friendly fire incident, the chopper was lost to the Shilka or other heavy MG weapon. What John is trying to point out is, that if the coordination that was the goal had been there, the friendly fire incident would not have occurred and we would not have lost a helo. The T-72 that was commandeered was only done so to eliminate the Shilka which would have further reduced Anti-Air coverage. This would have led to the ability to request additional CAS missions. Most ground forces are not going to request those missions while AA coverage is still visible.

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John CANavar

As Khan and I tried to point out, the most important issue here is coordination and communication between CAS and ground units. This is established on our servers by Air Ops Coordinator (if there is one stepped up). It is not only the ideal solution but also the current working formula. As some other AAR threads show, we have successully implemented it.

We enforce teamwork, communication and coordination on our servers and expect cooperation from all players. Regarding this incident, a combat pilot is NOT allowed to engage targets in a city without getting clearance from Air Ops Coordinator who is in contact with friendly ground units operating in the area.

If you still have questions, please pm ArmA admins. We will close this thread now. If you have an AAR post to make please pm an ArmA admin for unlock.