NVGs

Coridon · 01-02-2007, 08:34 PM

OK, many people are going to think I'm a little "off" after this post (if you didn't already!) but try to hear me out...

We played through the demo on morning/day/and night settings. Naturally everyone's FPS took a huge hit using the NVGs, not to mention view distance was really messy and enemies would be right on top of you before they materialized out of a splotchy, morphing wall of green.

That's all sane, now comes the insane argument.

Fighting with NVGs is like wearing an eyepatch over one eye, placing a piece of green cellophane over the other eye, and putting a strobe light under your chin as weapons and munitions are going off all around you. This experience really can't be replicated in a video game, primarily due to the fact that everyone's monitors are 2D to begin with so the loss of depth perception isn't really a factor.

Trying to clear an urban environment while only using infantry wearing NVGs is foolish. Trying to clear an urban environment where the defenders also have NVGs and APCs with night vision/thermal is criminally wreckless.

My point is, NVGs are really only beneficial when the other side doesn't have them and you're in a rather open environment where you're engaging targets at such a distance that stereoscopic vision isn't a necessity. Rounding a corner or entering a room and seeing someone immediately in front of you is not the ideal situation for having no depth perception.

That being said, are their realistic uses for NVGs in the full version of the game? Like where the goal is to move from point A to point B without being detected, etc.?

I know it's just the demo but for the life of me I can't figure out why using NVGs essentially just changes your monitor green and gives your FPS a huge performance hit. As far as the demo is concerned, I say thanks but I graciously decline the offer to play at night in that I cannot come up with a single decent reason why it would make sense to do so under the given conditions.

Anyone else aggree/disagree/agree to disagree??

**Wimpinator** · 01-02-2007, 09:23 PM

Actually I agree completely. I have never cared for any game that runs at night with NV simply because I don't like staring at the green. If I wanted to see that I would use a monochrome monitor matrix style. In the demo I haven't seen any advantage to the NV but some of the guys that have been playing the full game may have a different opinion. Maybe the demo doesn't represent them well.

**Shiner** · 01-02-2007, 10:07 PM

I couldn't agree more. I HATE the nvg missions. I personally can't see a thing in them.. at least not better than the AI. They are frustrating to me as is evidenced by the 01 mission on the server... If you go fast you can get into the town and take down a few hostiles pleasurably before the black of mordor takes over as day flips to night. After that flip, it is a quick death for me.

I MUCH MUCH prefer to see the weather effects in this game, which can "reduce" visibility a bit, but not relagate the game to squinting into the green cellophane.

BHack · 01-02-2007, 10:32 PM

Wow, I love the nightvision, and I've played the demo quite a bit. In fact, I can say it is the best implementation of night vision I've ever seen in a video game. Ok, well splinter cell's looked cooler, but this is definitely more realistic.

I've actually had the opportunity to try military grade night vision goggles and thats exactly what you see, it's like looking through binoculars where the separate images from your eyes are joined to form one oval. I find the game makes it extremely realistic looking.

Also, I thought the game was bugged first as I'd see the ground textures flashing and my vision going dark randomly on maps. Someone finally pointed out to me that it was from setting the weather to "rainy" and the lightning strikes were temporarily blinding me and causing the ground to flash, cool.

All the other things that make you go temporarily blind are caused by light sources. Fighting with the night vision on around a street light causes your vision to dim, going full auto with the saw will slowly blind you, etc. I don't know, I guess I find it cool how they implemented the NVG in game.

Oh and by the way, it DOES confer a tactical advantage to human players over AI. They still can see better than they should be able to, but their awareness is much lower at night.

jepzilla · 01-03-2007, 02:47 AM

I'm just here to say I agree with BHack. The majority of the OpFor do not have NVG, and with NVG and suppressed weapons you gain a huge tactical advantage, especially in close-quarters. It's a totally different game, moving building to building and emphasising stealth rather than blasting away with high powered rifles at the AIs from a distance. I have the full version and MP Mission #1 is clearing a town at night with NVG and suppressed weapons. It's my favorite mission so far.

If you think wandering around as infantry with NVG is hard, try flying a helo with them. But hard is fun. I highly recommend TrackIR for any night flying you have to do.

**Shiner** · 01-03-2007, 10:52 AM

Anyone care to take and post a few screenshots from a night mission with the enemy on the screen. I would love to compare with what I'm seeing on my end to test if my problem with NVG is machine related (ghx settings) or organic (bad eyesight).

**Buccaneer** · 01-03-2007, 12:38 PM

Here you go Shiner ....

Intel 3.6, with an ATI X800XT

Taken from the Training SP Mission: Night Strike (game time 0350Z). In some shots the "washing out" is because its raining!

1 Approaching Enemy Camp (Hidden sniper in the tower)
2 Sniper in that tower
3 Sniper terminated, using the sniper rifles scope from the tower
4 Enemy in "stealth mode" - and all over the camp

I am using the NVGs more in ArmA than I ever did in OFP. IMO I think there is an improvement. Any flash of light in the lenses, and you are blinded for a couple of seconds too.

BHack · 01-03-2007, 12:44 PM

Also, you get a FPS performance hit with NVG?

My FPS doubles in night mode because the HDR computations are way less complex without the sun.

**Buccaneer** · 01-03-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHack

Also, you get a FPS performance hit with NVG?

To be honest BHack, have not noticed any difference whether they are off or on at the moment.

Trouble with that particular night mission is, as soon as you drop any enemy (silenced weapon), the alarm is going off within 30 seconds! This is a classic OFP on your belly for hours mission - next bush - wait - next bush - wait ... etc. You have to put satchel bombs against all the armour, blow them, and escape. You are frustrated in your quest by quite a few guards, and an enemy Helo doing its rounds.

But I'm not moaning - I love it.

Vic · 01-03-2007, 01:19 PM

Offtopic, that mission is quite easy if you DON'T kill anyone

AMosely · 01-03-2007, 01:22 PM

I know where you're coming from Cor. I tend to treat NVG as binoculars. They are an intel/survey aid. Fighting with them on can often lead to blindness. Sniping is a toss-up. I've range-fired with them on and off, and can see where using them can be helpful when you need to make sure you've neutralized the contact.

Now, performance-wise. I think what you're seeing is a software/CPU performance hit and not necessarily a video card issue. I am guessing that the software 'overlays' the binocs, scopes and NVG views on top of the rendered scene and then manipulates it (zooms it, greens it, etc). So, regardless of video card performance, the CPU gets the biggest spike when these views are used. This happens a lot in this game, I think. Just a guess, though.

Cor, I thought you were getting the full version? Looking forward to seeing you in game. If I catch you in the demo, I'll load that up.

Turbo · 01-03-2007, 01:42 PM

I like the NVG's too. I prefer day time missions but sometime night time missions are necessary and the NVG's aren't bad at all.

BHack · 01-03-2007, 01:45 PM

Judging from the posts, it looks like the older you are the more likely you are to not like NVG's...

I think it's your crappy eyes.

Rick_the_new_guy · 01-03-2007, 01:58 PM

I never played a game at such a level were NVG have been used.

Plus, I never have put them on in RL.

Can't really compare anything, so I am useless to this discussion.

**Shiner** · 01-03-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Here you go Shiner ....

Thank you. Buc. I'm not familiar with that mission, so I will need to test tonight for a direct comparison, but those screens are 2x brighter and more visibile than my experience using NVG. I still have trouble seeing the soldier marked in the last SS (and yes that may be my slipping youth BHACK), but in my version of NVG I can't even make out the buildings at that range.

01-02-2007, 08:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
Coridon Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Indianapolis, Indiana Age: 34 Posts: 2,360	NVGs OK, many people are going to think I'm a little "off" after this post (if you didn't already!) but try to hear me out... We played through the demo on morning/day/and night settings. Naturally everyone's FPS took a huge hit using the NVGs, not to mention view distance was really messy and enemies would be right on top of you before they materialized out of a splotchy, morphing wall of green. That's all sane, now comes the insane argument. Fighting with NVGs is like wearing an eyepatch over one eye, placing a piece of green cellophane over the other eye, and putting a strobe light under your chin as weapons and munitions are going off all around you. This experience really can't be replicated in a video game, primarily due to the fact that everyone's monitors are 2D to begin with so the loss of depth perception isn't really a factor. Trying to clear an urban environment while only using infantry wearing NVGs is foolish. Trying to clear an urban environment where the defenders also have NVGs and APCs with night vision/thermal is criminally wreckless. My point is, NVGs are really only beneficial when the other side doesn't have them and you're in a rather open environment where you're engaging targets at such a distance that stereoscopic vision isn't a necessity. Rounding a corner or entering a room and seeing someone immediately in front of you is not the ideal situation for having no depth perception. That being said, are their realistic uses for NVGs in the full version of the game? Like where the goal is to move from point A to point B without being detected, etc.? I know it's just the demo but for the life of me I can't figure out why using NVGs essentially just changes your monitor green and gives your FPS a huge performance hit. As far as the demo is concerned, I say thanks but I graciously decline the offer to play at night in that I cannot come up with a single decent reason why it would make sense to do so under the given conditions. Anyone else aggree/disagree/agree to disagree??

01-02-2007, 09:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wimpinator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: United states, TN Age: 36 Posts: 2,982	Re: NVGs Actually I agree completely. I have never cared for any game that runs at night with NV simply because I don't like staring at the green. If I wanted to see that I would use a monochrome monitor matrix style. In the demo I haven't seen any advantage to the NV but some of the guys that have been playing the full game may have a different opinion. Maybe the demo doesn't represent them well. __________________ \|TG-6th\|Wimpinator BF2 Rules and SOP's\|Teamspeak information\|TG on IRC

01-02-2007, 10:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Shiner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 30 Posts: 2,256	Re: NVGs I couldn't agree more. I HATE the nvg missions. I personally can't see a thing in them.. at least not better than the AI. They are frustrating to me as is evidenced by the 01 mission on the server... If you go fast you can get into the town and take down a few hostiles pleasurably before the black of mordor takes over as day flips to night. After that flip, it is a quick death for me. I MUCH MUCH prefer to see the weather effects in this game, which can "reduce" visibility a bit, but not relagate the game to squinting into the green cellophane. __________________

01-02-2007, 10:32 PM	#4 (permalink)
BHack Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 27 Posts: 1,636	Re: NVGs Wow, I love the nightvision, and I've played the demo quite a bit. In fact, I can say it is the best implementation of night vision I've ever seen in a video game. Ok, well splinter cell's looked cooler, but this is definitely more realistic. I've actually had the opportunity to try military grade night vision goggles and thats exactly what you see, it's like looking through binoculars where the separate images from your eyes are joined to form one oval. I find the game makes it extremely realistic looking. Also, I thought the game was bugged first as I'd see the ground textures flashing and my vision going dark randomly on maps. Someone finally pointed out to me that it was from setting the weather to "rainy" and the lightning strikes were temporarily blinding me and causing the ground to flash, cool. All the other things that make you go temporarily blind are caused by light sources. Fighting with the night vision on around a street light causes your vision to dim, going full auto with the saw will slowly blind you, etc. I don't know, I guess I find it cool how they implemented the NVG in game. Oh and by the way, it DOES confer a tactical advantage to human players over AI. They still can see better than they should be able to, but their awareness is much lower at night. __________________

01-03-2007, 02:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
jepzilla Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Halifax, Canada Age: 26 Posts: 1,232	Re: NVGs I'm just here to say I agree with BHack. The majority of the OpFor do not have NVG, and with NVG and suppressed weapons you gain a huge tactical advantage, especially in close-quarters. It's a totally different game, moving building to building and emphasising stealth rather than blasting away with high powered rifles at the AIs from a distance. I have the full version and MP Mission #1 is clearing a town at night with NVG and suppressed weapons. It's my favorite mission so far. If you think wandering around as infantry with NVG is hard, try flying a helo with them. But hard is fun. I highly recommend TrackIR for any night flying you have to do.

01-03-2007, 10:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
Shiner Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Age: 30 Posts: 2,256	Re: NVGs Anyone care to take and post a few screenshots from a night mission with the enemy on the screen. I would love to compare with what I'm seeing on my end to test if my problem with NVG is machine related (ghx settings) or organic (bad eyesight). __________________

01-03-2007, 12:38 PM	#7 (permalink)
Buccaneer Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Nr Stonehenge, Wiltshire, UK Posts: 352	Re: NVGs Here you go Shiner .... Intel 3.6, with an ATI X800XT Taken from the Training SP Mission: Night Strike (game time 0350Z). In some shots the "washing out" is because its raining! 1 Approaching Enemy Camp (Hidden sniper in the tower) 2 Sniper in that tower 3 Sniper terminated, using the sniper rifles scope from the tower 4 Enemy in "stealth mode" - and all over the camp I am using the NVGs more in ArmA than I ever did in OFP. IMO I think there is an improvement. Any flash of light in the lenses, and you are blinded for a couple of seconds too.

01-03-2007, 12:44 PM	#8 (permalink)
BHack Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 27 Posts: 1,636	Re: NVGs Also, you get a FPS performance hit with NVG? My FPS doubles in night mode because the HDR computations are way less complex without the sun. __________________

01-03-2007, 01:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Vic Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 75	Re: NVGs Offtopic, that mission is quite easy if you DON'T kill anyone

01-03-2007, 01:22 PM	#11 (permalink)
AMosely Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Maine Age: 34 Posts: 2,793	Re: NVGs I know where you're coming from Cor. I tend to treat NVG as binoculars. They are an intel/survey aid. Fighting with them on can often lead to blindness. Sniping is a toss-up. I've range-fired with them on and off, and can see where using them can be helpful when you need to make sure you've neutralized the contact. Now, performance-wise. I think what you're seeing is a software/CPU performance hit and not necessarily a video card issue. I am guessing that the software 'overlays' the binocs, scopes and NVG views on top of the rendered scene and then manipulates it (zooms it, greens it, etc). So, regardless of video card performance, the CPU gets the biggest spike when these views are used. This happens a lot in this game, I think. Just a guess, though. Cor, I thought you were getting the full version? Looking forward to seeing you in game. If I catch you in the demo, I'll load that up.

01-03-2007, 01:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
Turbo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Age: 26 Posts: 3,935	Re: NVGs I like the NVG's too. I prefer day time missions but sometime night time missions are necessary and the NVG's aren't bad at all. __________________

01-03-2007, 01:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
BHack Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Age: 27 Posts: 1,636	Re: NVGs Judging from the posts, it looks like the older you are the more likely you are to not like NVG's... I think it's your crappy eyes. __________________

01-03-2007, 01:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rick_the_new_guy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Virginia Beach Age: 29 Posts: 1,789	Re: NVGs I never played a game at such a level were NVG have been used. Plus, I never have put them on in RL. Can't really compare anything, so I am useless to this discussion. __________________ (PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member (CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader (LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html

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