Uranium - 235

But that's just it. Only inside a vehicle in this game does 'playing as a team' absolutely by admin mandate require that you be held to the every beck and call of an infantry player who is more concerned with his own fun.

Infantry players have their own acceptable free-reign, and it's the mere act of, what, moving together that makes that 'teamwork'?

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Let me kinda spell this out for you.

Let's say, Paraiso is being taken with the infantry crawl. Same old same old. Takes a while. Paraiso falls. Since I can't remember the name of the other two towns, let's pretend that Ortego is the next target on the list.

Let's just pretend that air assets are all 'unlocked' at this point as well.

So okay. The jarheads had their fun and got to shoot retarded AIs who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. We all know that moving from one town to the next is something of a logistical nightmare. You have vehicles to recover and repair that were too risky to get prior to the town being taken. You have a lot of ground to cover and a lot of equipment to move. So while the infantry are going back to do some repairs and regrouping, we change up tactics a bit. Ortegois the next target and it's time for something completely different. The infantry players aren't going to Ortego, but are going to set up camp outside of Corazol. Corazol is right north of Ortego so this situation becomes a bit more ideal.

While the infantry are slowly moving around and doing their boring thing, the heavy asset players strike Ortego. For fun, I guess you could run a pass and spawn some AIs since they don't activate over 200m high. The opening attack involves heavy airstrikes with the intent of eliminating enemy armor and knocking out the antenna early. After the airstrikes, the armor rolls in deep and begins wiping out infantry augmented by attack helicopters. If the OPFOR is too intense, then you can call in the infantry from the north to help out.

Like I said, an ideal situation that requires a few more players then we have that allows both types of players to have their fun without leashing one type to the other's whims. With TvT this joint tactic could even be more effective as airstrikes tend to explode big buildings into tiny bits of rock, creating a less then ideal situation for urban guerrilla warfare putting OPFOR at a severe disadvantage.

__________________

tHa_KhAn

@Uranium

You're being a bit extreme. It's okay to disagree with the rules, but you and others of your opinion are so concerned with the rules that you are not playing the game they way it should. The rules and SOP's are there as way of dealing with problem players. If you truly believe your play style is teamwork oriented, then I don't see what the problem is. However, if you feel you and your buddy want to hop in 2 cobra's and level a city, use the COOP server or host your own game. Despite what you say, a pilot taking out all the armor without specific requests from the ground forces is NOT teamwork and NOT benefiting any players but the pilot. The goal of the SOP's is to protect the experience of the infantry players, not to make pilots the slaves. 1 pilot can ruin the day of 20 or so infantry players easy. And yes 20 or so infantry players can ruin the day of a pilot, but where is the middle ground? If pilots are weapons free, they WILL ruin the infantry experience and reduce all those players to a mop up crew when the pilot gets bored.

Like I have said a million and one times, if you don't like the Evolution rules, play on the COOP server. Obviously however, flying attach aircraft without an audience is not as much fun or something, because I can't figure out why these discussions continue when there is a real solution. If everyone who despises the Evolution rules plays exclusively on the COOP server, and there is no one left on Evolution then obviously things might change.

Remember, the SOP's aren't against pilots using the heavy aircraft, it's about the mentality that these aircraft are often used. This is a simulation, as an infantry man I get no benefit from hiding in a bunker while the air forces level the city. In real life that is another story, but in this game there is no real benefit to the mission being completed and you not being a part of the action. I keep seeing the solution offered of "Allow the pilots to hit another city". Outside of the pilots, how does that help anyone? The pilots would destroy one city, then move to the next leaving the infantry limping along behind them trying to catch up only conducting the annoying Hunt for the last hiding soldier in each city. We have many pilots who have no problem with hopping in their attack helo's and support the infantry groups. They put the teamwork first and their desires second. To me it seems like those that have a problem with the SOP's haven't really tried to work with the infantry. If you want to use CAS, spot targets and stay in contact with the SL's. With the limited Ammunition of the soliders, CAS is almost guaranteed to be called in. It is every time I play, so I have not seen the problem. If you want freedom to lone wolf and do your own thing because it "benefits" the team by giving you a high kill count, then check out the TG primer again.

Also, infantry has it's own set of rules to live by. The order of the cities and the teamwork aspect still apply. If someone wants to be a lone sniper with the .50 and refuse to work with infantry or conducting their own personal war with an A.I. posse they are in violation too. The rules of the day are teamwork. The infantry squad leaders get the devise the plan so that infantry which moves slower than armor and air can participate in a productive manner. Without that, you would have these 20 guys riding in 5-tons trying to catch up to the Abrams and Cobras.

__________________

jex

I think if Air are attacking, they should use comms to let eveyone know. I would rather hear it verbally, even if I'm in a firefight. A 5 second broadcast is not going to disrupt the firefight I am in. The rule is to keep the comms simple and use brevity, eg,

"Air Group in hot, North-East Somato, Tank"

That tells me that air is about to attack a tank in the north east of somato. It's quick, to the point and if given 20 seconds prior to the attack, ground forces can call it off. Personally I would prefer to hear Air Group rather than the players name as upon hearing Air Group, I will know to listen. Air should also have enough time to spot the target, and then set up there attack rather than just going straight in. Unless the target is moving, you can go around and as you are doing so, call in your attack

What I don't want to hear is,

"Err this is Nugget, I'm going to attack that tank in the south, um i mean north,... oh i just crashed." lol

If the call is made and a squad doesn't listen to it then tough on the squad. If it's a text chat though, and 8 people are texting as well as the contact texts and other stuff that comes up, I am not looking at it and will miss any strikes that are coming in. Voice chat is fine and the calls will be few anyway as not to disrupt ground forces.

__________________
Jex

jex

In fact Infantry shouldn't be dying because they are too intent on getting the kills themselves. There are an awful lot of targets to be had and when confronted by an overwhelming force, they should be calling in CAS.

__________________
Jex

Uranium - 235

Khan, you say I'm being extreme, and then you paint this picture of pilots wiping out everything on the map and apparently finishing the map so quickly and thoroughly that it can never be played again?

*headslap*

See? This. This is like saying "I'm not a racist, but I can't stand n***ers." First you say that it's okay. Then you tell us it's not, and to GTFO and play somewhere else. Having six guys running 3 tanks is typically as big as an infantry squad gets so that means they have every damn right to 'have fun' the way your precious infantry players want - but it's not like these poor infantry players who can't for ONCE sacrifice for someone else's sake can't go play GRAW2 and get the same stupid experience of walking around a city with a gun.

This is going nowhere, I don't know why you people so completely fail to understand my point, because I sure as hell can't make it more clear.

It's a sandbox game. Let us play the game as it was designed with SOPs that ELIMINATE the errant behavior, not punish the pilots who wear the |TG| tags. Let me tell you something - retards are going to screw up the game, and the SOPs don't stop them. There's jets and helicopters and tanks for a damn good reason. If it was supposed to be just infantry, then they wouldn't be there. There's 6 MILLION other FPS game that have nothing but infantry walking around with the same tired collection of weapons, there AREN'T that many FPS games that combine the massive environments and the elements of air and ground like ArmA does. If BIS wanted aircraft to be nothing more then a glorified anti-tank round to falls from the heavens at the whim of infantry who somehow managed to run out of anti-tank weapons themselves (since they're all carrying them), then they wouldn't have made them flyable. You'd point, click, wait, and the bomb would just explode for you.

By making vague SOPs to punish people for not playing it like yet-another-infantry-shooter-lolz, you've just eliminated half the damn point of the game. If the only reason for not allowing diversified force of arms instead of walking everywhere is because you think that pilots are going to explode the entire map before the poor infantry players who are so spoiled and full of themselves that they can't for ONCE play a secondary role in taking a city, then you've already lost this argument, because I've thrown every good reason in the world at these SOPs to change how we play Evo and not once has a valid defense been presented.

BTW: It's funny that I brought up GRAW2. I haven't even finished the game, but I know that there's both a tank AND an airstrike that you can designate targets for. No, players don't control them, they're there just to support the infantry man. Sounds to me like the people who just want that 400 million tons of metal back at the airfield to be a 'supporting' role should GTFO and go play GRAW2 instead of vice versa - it's exactly what they want.

__________________

jex

Moving in with a squad and working together is where the teamwork comes in. It's not just walking in close proximity - it's moving tactically, buddying up, using different tactics, supporting each other - i.e working as a team to complete an objective.

There is no logistical nightmare to get to another town, we take 2 minutes to load up and we're gone - more often than not via Air Transport.

The AI aren't really dummies and prove to be a challenge. But the same could be said for Air - where's the challenge in flying something that the AI cannot hit and pointing the nose at a target and pressing fire? Since the AC modelled in this are so far from reality, it could be said that why take such an easy way out to complete a map? But how many times do wing operators bother to involve the infantry? When you get into an aircraft are you doing it for the good of the team or is it just because it's what you want to do?

Integrating everyone together and being mindful of othyer players and getting them in on the action is what we should be striving for and anyone who doesn't agree with that mentality, or is looking just to do their own thing, should look elsewhere because TG was not created for that mindset. I'm not saying this is you Uranium, this reply is generalzing your points and is to everyone.

__________________
Jex

Uranium - 235

Using different tactics? That's what I said like 3 posts ago as a reason to lighten up on this 'LOL RMER AND JETS R 4 FAGZ' mentality and it got buried under the rhetoric of "RUINING FUN" because it's absolutely necessary that every city be taken by infantry.

The map is playable more then once.

EDIT: Funny you should mention that air is 'easy'. I don't know what flying experience in ArmA you have, but it's not terribly uncommon for some boob on the ground with an AK47 to wildly spray your helicopter with bullets and somehow completely knock the engine offline.

__________________

tHa_KhAn

We agree on this. The SOP's support this behavior, assuming you are willing to work with the ground team. The reason I used the extreme example is evidently taking out 2 or 3 armor pieces in the city is not enough for those that have a problem with the SOP's, they want more and at what point is more enough. If that is still too limited, the COOP server has many missions with the whole island. Load an RTS mission and just build aircraft.

Maybe a better example would be BF2, you can suicide jeep in BF2, it's a useful tactic, but it's against the rules at TG. I know people whine about that all the time too, but maybe that's a better example. Yes, Evolution is a sandbox and the possibilities to do a great many things exist, but many of those things do not fit in with what our goal at TG is. Like I said, if you are smart and respectful pilot, then what is the problem with the SOP's? If you find SL's consistently ignoring you, let an admin know. remember, they are engaged on the ground and sometimes it takes a little while to get everything sorted out. Use Text, it works well. Be willing to repeat yourself. Better safe than sorry. If fast paced vehicle combat is what you seek, our Evolution server is not the place to be.

__________________

GinSoakedBoy

@Jax, I think the air guys should be called in to hit specific targets, instead of just informing others of what they are about to hit.

Now the air players will go "Oh now, but we won't be able to attack anything"

Not true, I think CAS is crucial, and SL's should call it in a fair bit. So an SL requests it and the CAS comes in and takes it out.

I also think requesting targets is fine, for example

"This is NAME I have eyes on an enemy T-72, marking on map, would you like me to take it out?"

Now, I think most SLs would accept that, provided the air players isn't just continually requesting targets.

Uranium - 235

The problem is that the SOPs only allow one use for armor and air assets which is to obey the whim of the infantry, that whim being "we can't blow up this tank, you do it... okay now go fly our buddies back here."

I've been over this.

Go back and read my example of having an all out aerial assault with *gasp* teammates or an armored attack. I *also* pointed out that the infantry players play 'pretend' and do adhere to non-lame tactics, so the fear of armor players going on some berserk rampage is ludicrous.

I think I'll just start copy-pasting my old posts now because there's nothing new for me to say.

__________________

Uranium - 235

But if I'm Joe Grunt on the ground I just whip out my LAW and blow it to **** since 99% of the time your squad leader tells you to shoot whatever the hell you want anyway.

Yeah, that makes sense. Give the grunts an HUMMV full of Javelin ammo and you've just given the grunts the power of the Cobra. Point-click-armor-goes-boom.

Let's ban the Javelin too. Oh, even better, you can't use it unless a pilot ASKS you to use it!

See my previous point in the previous thread about a mandatory latrine guard from each squad for every pilot who wants to be flying CAS or tactical airstrikes but can't.

__________________

jex

Are you saying that you can take out a complete city with just air? With absolutely no infantry involvment what-so-ever? You can get all the stragglers can you?

Yes the map is obviously playable more than once and each time I play it, I like a team orientated game.

I've flown a little in Arma, and that comment was more about fixed wing AC. Yes it's a little bit more difficult in a LB. I'm an advocate of getting air in, if you had read any of my posts - what I don't want to see is the lone pilot/soldier mentality going on. The server is not there to show off in AC or play by yourself - hence the term multiplayer.

__________________
Jex

GinSoakedBoy

@Uranium, despite your usual abrasive manner, I actually agree with your point. It IS too easy to have a full squad all with AT, which is unrealistic. Someone has mentioned this in another thread that AT could be limited, which would increase the demand for Armour/Air.

The thing is, you seem to be only interested in your own enjoyment of ArmA, whereas the TG Admin are after the interest of everyone. If a server full of people want to play in one way, and you want to play in another, why are your needs more important than a group of others?

Uranium - 235

I didn't say that, at least I didn't mean to imply it.

BTW I've not ONCE said anything about lone-wolf infantry running around with the Barret sniping guys for points, so as far as I'm concerned this "LOL PILUTS WIL RUIN TEH GAEM" is totally unfounded. I don't base arguments on a tiny minority of retards that would get banned no matter what they were using as a weapon, so throwing that at ME as a reason for air to be neutered isn't fair, and I think you know it.

Case in point, yesterday evening on the Evo server there were about 15 of us. One of our guys with a TG tag and everything went to the last city on the list (Pita or something), captured it himself, and stole the Russian bomber and taxied it around the airfield showing it off. Someone complained about capturing the last city but I didn't care. Why? Because I wasn't going to be playing Evo for the next 14 hours straight so why do I give a damn about a city that I'll never be around to see captured tonight anyway?

Was he playing as a team? Not at all. He was lone-wolfing in exactly the way you just described. Is it something we want to encourage? Not really, but it wasn't a big deal for just stealing a jet to show off. Did it 'ruin the fun'? No, we weren't even off the south island yet.

__________________

Uranium - 235

Bollocks. Countless times in both threads has there been a very precise distinguished line between people who want to play GRAW2 in ArmA and people who want to use vehicles as well. And countless times in both threads was it mentioned specifically that the infantry players were more important and that 'preserving their fun' was of paramount importance.

I just said in my last thread that since infantry expect pilots to obey their whims and sacrifice what THEY want to do for the benefit of the infantryman, why can't infantry sacrifice once in a while and let the flyboys make some noise?

Ask me, I'm the only one around here being rational about this since I'm pointing out a compromise where both sides of this argument can have their cake and eat it too. All I keep hearing back are arguments I've debunked two days ago.

__________________