GinSoakedBoy

Well that's a great attitude

"He's ruining the game for people, but what do I care? I'm off now"

Stealing enemy jets and showing them off seems a bit BF2 public play.

As regulars to the TG servers, we should be encouraging teamplay and helping newer players, not sitting back and letting people mess around.


Edit: Rational, lol.

Since the whole discussion of CAS started, I've started playing as FAC and try to call in CAS where possible without stepping on the toes of the infantry, and the results have been good for everyone. If as an air player you feel under-used, remind the SL's that you are there.

Uranium - 235

CAS is one thing but if you've actually read my posts you'll see that I'm fighting for a little more then just 'Close Air Support' which is what I've called it from the start - heavenly wrath at the whim of the infantryman. And who the hell needs pilots then? Put an AI in the jet and give him the right orders and he'll just fly in circles and drop bombs on your laser or runs out of fuel.

I want the game to be able to be played in a variety of ways with different tactics without these SOPs hobbling gameplay that'd be beneficial for everyone. Using ALL the assets to play a combat simulation of combined arms - not an INFANTRY simulation - that's not what this game advertised itself as and that's not what we should be making it. America's Army is a better infantry simulator then this game by FAR.

On the first page of this thread it was mentioned that pilots should be allowed a little free-reign in target choice. If they see a tank driving away let them blast it to crap. Makes perfect sense to me. If infantry absolutely must own the cities then they have no business dictating what goes on outside the cities. If you've just spend the last 30 minutes inside a building waiting for your buddy to drive a Ford Fiesta with a flat tire from the main base, what the hell do you care that an A-10 pilot just blew up a tank? Because he got more points for that? Grow up.

And a handful of posts later, people were screaming about how if they let pilots do that, they'd probably hack into the server, spread communism and fund terrorism and give us all eAIDS or something so they can't let them do that.


EDIT: No the point wasn't "What do I care, I'm off now". The point was that this entire 'PILOTS RUIN THE FUN' argument is ****ing stupid since there's more then enough cities to do something besides the standard boring-ass infantry crawl. If you decide to by-and-large knock a city out with a concentrated air assault, you move on to the next city and do something else. The pilots get to joyride a bit, infantry might not get to pointwhore like they want to, and you move on from there. Life is about making sacrifices. So the stupid infantry have to do a bit of housecleaning or follow behind a tank while sitting in a truck.

Another example - on the game on Sunday we did that MOUT mission. I was in Bravo - 2 squad, and we were assigned the Snooze Sector. We were behind most of the other squads and found maybe one AI wandering around. I didn't fire a bullet for the first 30 minutes of the game. Did we complain?

If you want to make air more risky and exciting, make a script that actually gives AI some AA weapons, or even better, mod in a MiG-29 so that the OPFOR can scramble a sortie of air-air interceptors and shoot down defenseless A-10s.

__________________

GinSoakedBoy

YOU find the 'infantry crawl' boring, but clearly, if people are doing it, other people must enjoy it. I've never found the pace too slow as infantry.

The discussion hasn't moved forward because your stubborness is preventing you from realising that;

1. Your enjoyment is not more important that that of everyone else
2. Air and Armour can be deployed with infantry effectively so that both get a good shot at the enemy.

You say that infantry gets all the fun with AT etc, but this is exactly what you are asking for but for the air players. What we need is BALANCE, and you don't seem to be striving for that.

It seems that every time someone puts forward a good suggestion, you seem to get all up-tight and slap your had and then just spout rubbish, making everything go round in circles.

People DO read you posts, they DO understand, we aren't stupid. If you just stopped being so bloody abrasive people may be more inclined to agree with some of what you are saying.

tHa_KhAn

Uranium,

No one or the SOP's are saying you have to follow the infantry's whims. Where do you get that? They have priority of objective and the air units must respect their movements. If you find a target, mark a target, call out a target, verify there is no friendlies near by, then there wouldn't be a problem. If you feel the infantry is ignoring you and not offering a chance, then please let an admin know. Like I've said before, this does not seem to happen when I play so it's hard for me to sympathize for something I never see or hear about except a few select individuals. The slow moving, high immersion infantry gameplay is the gametype we here want to support. I posted a link in the other thread where Apophis stopped by to say that. You may find it boring, but it is the most rewarding gameplay and most sought after on these servers.

The are several reasons for not attacking other cities, they ahve all been stated and that will not change. As for the attitude of "I'm not going to play for the next 14 hours." that's the point we have for not attacking different cities or doing stupid things like that. We want to avoid the idiots that need to show off their 1337 skillz.

__________________

Uranium - 235

Good suggestions? Alright, share with me some of these and I'll point out exactly where it's been suggested before or how it's no different from what we have now - pilots just being glorified taxi drivers. The best one so far was giving pilots attack of opportunity permission outside of city limits and that got shot down pretty fast.

So far for suggestions I've been told to quit the game and play somewhere else, shut up and be a taxi driver because that's all I'm good for, and the occasional 'compromise' that sounds suspiciously like the exact rules that are in place already.

Also, how exactly is saying that the occasional armored / aerial assault ISN'T balance? When's the last time you saw one of those take place? Or were the infantry whining about getting teamkilled?

Clearly it is if I'm playing the pure infantry aspect.

Isn't that what I said in every post I've made in this thread?

Please go back and specifically address some of the points I've made. I've answered so much of this stuff before and all I keep hearing back for arguments is the same stuff I already responded to.

__________________

Uranium - 235

No, it's not the infantry crawl I find boring, it's the exact same infantry crawl in the exact same manner with the exact same loadouts without some refreshing change that I find boring. But between the fact that pilots have nothing to do except ferry dead infantry back and forth, the ease of infantry anti-armor, and the SOPs that dictate exactly what you can and cannot do with a tank or aircraft that hinges on decisions made by infantry that I find.... STIFLING is a better term.

Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say an infantry unit is attacking a city. During the attack, we bring in a cobra down to street level and give the infantry squad a hand and clean out some hostiles, explode a few things, cause some ruckus and then pull out. We're doing exactly what one would expect one to do with an attack helicopter. We're not rushing the towers for points, or circling between the city and a FARP with hellfires exploding every damn thing we see.

What do you think would happen?

1) The infantry appreciate the cool experience and the helping hand?

2) Someone throws a ****-fit because they didn't ask permission to engage?

If you can honestly tell me that (1) is what would happen, then we wouldn't be having this debate, because sensible use of vehicle assets are exactly what I want to happen. Because for the first TWO pages of this thread people have complained about other people's various suggestions on how to change the CAS SOP, it's far more likely that (2) would happen.

Another thing I keep hearing is 'infantry simulation' and the 'immersive experience'. Guess what, in the military, the pilots do more that doesn't involve taking orders from the lowly infantry. In the military, you utilize all your tools. In the military, you breath a sigh of relief when a tremendous explosion rocks the neighborhood and an M1A1 Abrams rolls unannounced to support your position, instead of running over to the tank complaining about how he could've caused friendly fire and needs to ask the squad leader next time if he WANTS help.

Long story short - as long as you keep trying to make rules saying what pilots and armor can and cannot attack with and without permission and more specifically, you do not trust pilots like myself, Switch, and others who do know what Tactical Gamer is about, then we can't have this 'balance' that Gin spoke of, because that is what I don't like - that people can and will complain about things like bringing in a Cobra for a little firework show every now and then for no damn good reason except because the admins allow them to whine.

If this is how it's going to be, then so be it, I'll put my money where my mouth is. For the next few Evo games, I'm going to be on the server utilizing heavy assets in ways I deem tactically significant and beneficial to the team as a whole, and most importantly, it's going to be with a minimum of asking the squad leader to take pity on me and tell me I can finally drop *a* bomb.

__________________

GinSoakedBoy

I don't know why I bother, you aren't listening to anyone, and its got the point now where I don't care if you have a dull time on ArmA, so long as you're not ruining it for anyone else.

I don't see why being a transport pilot is such a bad thing, plenty of people are happy enough to just ferry people around.

I'm not going to re-read the guff that you have posted, you're making this discussion go round in circles.

The SOPs and attitudes of the players on the servers easily allow for a good time to be had by air players, if you can't manage that then its YOUR fault, not everyone else's.


Edit: The Airforce DO take orders though, there is a hierarchy and there is co-ordination between the elements of the Armed Forces.

tHa_KhAn

The best thing I can tell you Uranium, is that none of your arguments are new which is why the compromises sound suspiciously like the SOP's. You would be amazed at how many members of the TG ArmA community only act as transport and resupply pilots. Many of them never fly CAS or only do so when there is enough transport and CAS is requested. The biggest problem I see with this is you believe the slow paced infantry is boring, you believe flying transport(or being a taxi) is boring, and you find flying CAS waiting for targets marked by infantry extremely boring. I inform you that there is whole other server where there are no such SOP's governing the gameplay, but that is not a good enough solution. So I'm out of ideas. From the TG Admin to the Game Officer, to the game admins it has come down to support the teamplay and immersion oriented gameplay. Yes armor and air can be a part of that. ArmA's strength are with the infantry(look at the list of vehicles and aircraft, only those that support infantry). The armor and aircraft do easily out pace the infantry which ruins that experience. If the armor and aircraft are willing to move at the infantry's pace there is no problem and the SOP's reflect that. If you are unwilling to move at that pace then I again suggest trying the COOP server.

__________________

Evil Koala

Then this discussion is over. I've been flying on TG servers since ArmA's release last November and (1) is exactly how things would happen. As long as you werent raping the entire town with rocket fire and only targeting positively ID'd enemys that are clear of friendly positions, you would be SUPPORTING the infantry. There would be no problem.

__________________
TG Regular
TGU Staff
ShackTac FNG

ANGELofDEATH

So lets get this straight.. This "Squad" that attacked Pita for the purpose of getting an SU, was not a sole man.. It was a squad that was doing a side mission. Then decided that instead of joining the rest of the team and boringly clear the next city went to Pita and cleared it on their "SUPER SECRET SPECIAL OPS". ok.. it was not some lone wolf, it was a full squad of guys all going on thier own for their own fun. Dont think it was a single guy who ruined the mission/server playability for the rest of the players.

Apon joining the server someone had decided to chase a KA 50 across the island allerting all but 3 cities (Eponia, Masbete and Pita). Doing this makes the server spawn AI at each of these cities(more AI=more lag).
But it seems like you they were not going to be on the server for the clearing of all the cities, it was not their problem.
Which shows they have the same sorry additude you show in your posts and in-game.

This intire discussion is about the use of Propper CAS.. Everyone here agrees that CAS and Armor Support can be used in teamwork. The problem we are discussing is the lonewolf CAS. And any lonewolfing is in direct violation of the TG primer, regardless of server rules.
You are a suppporting member, so I assume you have read and understand the TG primer, so I am not going to quote it here.. Although I dont think you are abiding by its principles in your posts here. It is possible to have a debate without constant cursing and basically calling everyone else here an idiot. We all are adults and can read, I understand you rantings and your points, but most of it is going to get lost in the rant.

Khan has pointed out untold numbers of times that if someone wants to go Apocalypse Now on a city there are many other better suited missions for that exact thing. Evo IS a sandbox mission. In case you have missed it, I am a self procaimed Armor whose, and have gotten in trouble for attacking targets when the infantry didnt want me too. So dont think I am one of the "infantry only" chest pounders. I love ground pounding too.

The first and only objective in TG gaming is to make sure everyone is having a good time playing as a team... and yes, everyone includes you, the grunts and the fly boys. If the flyboys want more targets, they need to keep asking and the ISL need to stop being so selfish and give some targets up for the other guys. EVO is just as much about teamwork as TG itself.. It is insane that some are being so selfish, that they as a squad dont want any help from the others on the server, they would rather die than get help from the team.

IRT.
You all know I will speak my mind, here and in-game.. I will not tolerate anymore of this lonewolfing.. I will be reporting all lonewolfing players (including full squads and their SLs)to admin, and if I have too, I will go up the ladder until the problem is addressed.

The CAS pilots want more targets? they need to start be ready for them. Flying Engies are against Evo server rules.
You dont want to be a taxi service? Grab a carbine or wait for the next target, because I WILL be calling for them more often. The main reason I have not because Im always told by the pilots they are busy.. Which may explain why every grunt carries an AT tube.

__________________
theeANGELofDEATH -F5-ANGEL
Sarcasm is just another free service I offer
COD4 text binds

Toshido

[quote=GinSoakedBoy;771553]Toshido, if you are in the Air channel, I don't see how there would be chatter. All you will hear are requests for transport and CAS over channel command, which is exactly what you need to hear. The SL needs to be able to reach the pilots over channel command to request things.

Also, CAS pilots should be attacking requested targets only, if they aren't being requested they can remind the SL that they are available (this has been mentioned before). If they are transporting a lot of troops who keep dying, then you may also offer CAS as are clearly in need of it if they are taking heavy casualties.
[quote]

Its not the Air channel being inundated with chatter, it is the squads channel...

I still believe that CAS pilots should be able to pick their own targets, just make sure that engagin them does not destroy the work of the guys on the ground.

Toshido

i like that...

Toshido

That is what I actually prefer. It is just when there are too many pilots or not enough dieing infantry I think about CAS.

Toshido

Flying Engies are against the gentelmen's agreement. As far as I know that is different then the rules.

All pilots should have troop transport as their prmary goal. That is why infantry squads can only get reliable CAS when there area a lot of pilots online.

Switch

Uranium, you gotta do what I do. You get one man on the ground in kahoots with you. Whenever a sqd is giving you bs, you have your secret ground man throw red smoke on them. Then you just shout on TS -- Copy that, coming in for CAS on red smoke.

By the time they realized what happened you can already say, "Sorry, someone marked you with red smoke and called in cas" Take another sip of your beer and chuckle with delight as you play air taxi for the next few minutes.

:P

__________________
|TG|Switch

Better known as:
That noob who crashed the chopper.
That noob who ran over the mine.
That noob who TK'd me with a sniper rifle.
That noob who hit that APC at 300m with light AT! Our APC...