@Loyal - score board discussion

[jex]

Originally Posted by loyalguard

@Jex-

As Khan said, I do not think so...I believe the scoreboard is part of the game engine and the only way it "might" be editable is a custom mod (beyond my scope)...

...but...is it "points" you have issue with or the number of "kills" a player has made. I suppose a script could be made (or edit other scripts that add to a players score,) to regularly reset a player score to zero (except for teamkills, unarmed enemy AI kills, etc.). Since we are running unranked points don't really matter but I would have to look into it more.

However, if it is number of "kills" being displayed that is your concern (I know it is mine), perhaps that can be looked at...let research for a it.

Hey all,

From the other closed thread Loyal asked this question and I didn't get a chance to answer which is good as it really needs a thread of its own. This isn't necessarily refering to Evo btw.

There are several reasons here to remove a score board. Score Boards do not really do anything for teamwork because for some people, they like to see their name up at the top. Similarly, some people don't like to see their name down the bottom. More importantly, the scoreboard does nothing to reflect the input of the player. A player can get no points what-so-ever but still was an integral part of the team (say a scout who was just calling out contacts for the team). It can also be used to check that the AI you just shot (or player in tvt?) is actually dead and not lying behind cover. Lastly, since I doubt there's anyone here that has screenshots of every scoreboard they have played plastered all over their wall to host parties over ("Yes I got 236 kills in this one game! More wine..."), why should we want them. We aren't a point scoring community here and people can always scratch tally marks into their monitor if they wish

What does everyone else think?

[Long Bow]

I agree that the use of the scoreboard to track kills is a problem, one that has come up in other games I played that removed kill confirmations.

I like to see how I have done at the end of a map or round but at the same time I don't measure how well I did by K : D ratio. I would be fine with having no score board at all, as you said Jex it can lead to point farming or embaressment (TG seems to not cater to this cowd though)

[tHa_KhAn]

I too wouldn't mind seeing an end game score board out of curiosity. Sometimes it's nice to know you weren't just shooting trees. However, I don't really see any good coming from an in game scoreboard and I would gladly sacrifice end game to avoid the point whores.

[loyalguard]

Thanks for re-opening the issue Jex, I forgot that it was contained in the beta announcement thread.

For those of you familiar with BF2 Project Reality Mod (and before that our TG Tactical Mod) removing the scoreboard is/was an important feature. As said above when it comes to TvT and even Coop, scoreboard kill confirmation is the biggest issue I have with ArmA scoreboards (during the mission). If the leads in the thread from the OFPEC forum I posted work out, this may be easy to implement on a mission by mission basis. While we all discuss the merits of the proposal, I will look into if it is even possible (no short term time frame though)

[JAMerica]

Like in the other post, I'm all for removing the scoreboard. It absolutely serves no usable purpose.

All that's required is a fairly simple client side mod (which already exists). It does not remove the "end-of-game" summary, so you can still look. The problem with this of course is enforcing the use of a "TG" mod, which we could either do on the honor system or enforce using the new server tools.

[loyalguard]

Originally Posted by JAMerica

Like in the other post, I'm all for removing the scoreboard. It absolutely serves no usable purpose.

All that's required is a fairly simple client side mod (which already exists). It does not remove the "end-of-game" summary, so you can still look. The problem with this of course is enforcing the use of a "TG" mod, which we could either do on the honor system or enforce using the new server tools.

Does it really require a full mod though? I understand that it would if you wanted it to be universal for all missions but it seems that if we wanted to insert it ourselves it would only require a single script and an execvm somehwere in the init.sqf. What is the mod that currently does this?

[jex]

Inserting it into the mission works fine for those missions that have it included, but not all of them will. A server sided option would be great.

[Insanatrix]

I am missing the importance of this scoreboard topic. What i mean to say is, is this more of a preference of the player or something that needs to be enforced via a mod? I'm only speaking on behalf of my experiences but i very rarely check the scoreboard. I dont think taking the scoreboard out is gonna magically make people more prone to working as a team, i think that is something they have to decide on their own. I can agree with the problem of people who check the scoreboard to see if they got that kill but honestly i dont even keep track of how many kills i have so even if i look at the scoreboard, i dont know what i originally had to see if i got another point or not.


I would rather see focus on scripts that enhance the AI or make the game more fun, and mods that add something to the game rather than taking a bunch of stuff out. Why dont we put some of the good weapons mods on the server, or maybe put NWD's ballistics mod on the server since he has modeled the ballistics as close to reality as possible. It also has the benefit of making those 500m AK shots less lethal as they would be in real life. What about adding stuff like the truerange ai mod to the server, and suppressive fire scripts and mods.

We could easily create a stickied topic about what mods are needed to play on the server etc... and since new people joining have to sign up for the forums and TS and have to read the forums to get the password, and are supposed to read the SOP's i dont see why it is that hard for someone to see a post about required mods to play on the server. And really only the mods that add actual entities to the game are required by the client. Things like the true range AI and the ballistics mod are not required by the client however you can enable it so that they must have it.

Part of the problem i have seen so far is that things get old and boring. People got tired of Evo being played all the time, because it was always the same. I think we need to add these mods to the server to create new and exciting situations and encounters to every mission, so that things arent always the same and get old and boring. All of this ties into the use of teamwork and tactics.


So basicly im just saying there are bigger things i would rather see put into the server than worrying if average joe is looking at his scoreboard to see if he got that kill or not.

[JAMerica]

Lots of people do have the habit (from other fps's) of checking the scoreboard to confirm a kill, removing it simply removes the temptation (no harm, no foul). It makes you count the bodies, and discourages the exhibitionists (and yes they do play on our server)

I also think it's a very visual way of saying..."Hey, at TG points don't matter, teamwork does"

Evo is boring because it's repetitive, and I personally don't think any mod is going to change that. What we really need to combat ArmA fatigue is to find new & better missions!

P.S: I too would like to see realistic ballistics and improved AI, but I don't like the potpourri of mods required to have a complete solution (hopefully some sort of total conversion mod will come about). Most of the AI behavoir has to be scripted into the missions themselves, and this can only be done by mission makers.

[Insanatrix]

Originally Posted by JAMerica

Lots of people do have the habit (from other fps's) of checking the scoreboard to confirm a kill, removing it simply removes the temptation (no harm, no foul). It makes you count the bodies, and discourages the exhibitionists (and yes they do play on our server)

I also think it's a very visual way of saying..."Hey, at TG points don't matter, teamwork does"

Evo is boring because it's repetitive, and I personally don't think any mod is going to change that. What we really need to combat ArmA fatigue is new & better missions!

P.S: I too would like to see realistic ballistics and improved AI, but I don't like the potpourri of mods required to have a complete solution (hopefully some sort of total conversion mod will come about). Most of the AI behavoir has to be scripted into the missions themselves, and this can only be done by mission makers.

Well even if they do want to check the scoreboard to see if they got a kill i dont see why its so bad as to completely remove the ability to see the scoreboard. I'm iffy about removing things that people might find useful in some way. I have no problems with someone wanting to be the top dawg in kills. We already have a 90 second respawn in Evo along with many other ways to discourage people from lone wolfing and trying to point whore or whatever you wanna call it. If you want people to work as a team then say you are squading up, Get people who are interested in working as a team. Its as simple as that. And then if someone wants to work on their own as i see it, as long as they dont bother anyone or ruin anything for anyone else, why shouldnt they be able to? People have many opinions and many perceptions of what is good and what is bad. I just dont want to see everything limited to just a select few.

[JAMerica]

Originally Posted by Insanatrix

I'm iffy about removing things that people might find useful in some way.......................We already have a 90 second respawn in Evo along with many other ways to discourage people from lone wolfing and trying to point whore or whatever you wanna call it............. I just dont want to see everything limited to just a select few.

I can't see any possible legitimate use of the scoreboard that enhances the simulation aspect of this game. Most of the time I play with a mod that disables the scoreboard and I'm not lacking any functionality. In fact having the scoreboard detracts from the sim aspect by allowing people to magically tally the results of throwing a frag over the wall. It's the uncertainty in these games that give them that immersive appeal.

This isn't just about Evo. Having a scoreboard has the same ramifications in co-op and adversarial missions. I think it's incredibly important in adversarial as it definitely slows you down....giving your opponent time to escape or flank you.

I'm not sure what's being limited. I thought TG is trying to support this game as a simulation. It's a simple modification that removes a very arcadey feature. Remember you can still check your score at the end of the mission if it's that important to you.

[Dslyecxi]

Why limit it to removing the scoreboard? Cut out kill/death notices while you're at it and you'll see gameplay and immersion jump up a good deal.

The ShackTac addon pack has both of those features currently, and we wouldn't have it any other way.

[JAMerica]

Right, I forgot about the kill/death notices I've been taking the freedom from those pesky messages for granted lately.

@Loyal: I'd like to see k/d messages removed in any TG mod/addon pack as well.

[jex]

Originally Posted by JAMerica

Right, I forgot about the kill/death notices I've been taking the freedom from those pesky messages for granted lately.

@Loyal: I'd like to see k/d messages removed in any TG mod/addon pack as well.

Yup me too, I forgot about that since I hardly play TvT.

As to this and the score board it doesn't have to be done if it is a pain to implement but if it is easy then why not? We don't have a use for it here.

As to Mods, well that becomes more difficult because it closes the server to those that don't have them. Adding mods to Arma can be a major asshat, expecially if there are multiple mods to download and it's offputting for people to grab them. I'm definitely for using them but I think if we go down that route, then TG should put them all in one package and host the file (for SM's at the least) because individually it's going to be problematic. Careful consideration is needed for what Mods we use, who keeps track of new versions, who packages/hosts them, etc.

[tHa_KhAn]

Originally Posted by jex

Yup me too, I forgot about that since I hardly play TvT.

As to this and the score board it doesn't have to be done if it is a pain to implement but if it is easy then why not? We don't have a use for it here.

As to Mods, well that becomes more difficult because it closes the server to those that don't have them. Adding mods to Arma can be a major asshat, expecially if there are multiple mods to download and it's offputting for people to grab them. I'm definitely for using them but I think if we go down that route, then TG should put them all in one package and host the file (for SM's at the least) because individually it's going to be problematic. Careful consideration is needed for what Mods we use, who keeps track of new versions, who packages/hosts them, etc.

We are actually working on that. I don't think it will come to full use until we get the mod signatures are in full swing. Although I don't have problem putting together a little pack that includes essentials.