Re: Suppressive fire?

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 01-09-2007, 12:24 PM

Never played it.

I sniped some guys with the saw at 500 meters and maybe 650 meters.
After using the binocs and finding them, I zoomed in with the saw, pressed the space bar and found their location and meters in distance away.

After that I shot four bullets at a time in the direction several times. If they layed down after the initial burts, they soon died later. I conformed this by looking at my stats (pressed the I button).

I believe saw sniping to be realistic. Afte all, Marine sniper Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, a legend in the Marine Corp, recorded a kill at 2,500 yards with a M-2 .50 caliber machine gun. His Unertl sniper scope was mounted.

Source: Henderson, Charles W. Marine Sniper, Stein and Day Publishers, 1986.

**Nikolas** · 01-09-2007, 12:54 PM

The SAW's 5.56 round is not even in the same league as the M2's .50. The .50 was originally designed to take down airplanes, and is technically banned from use against infantry by the Geneva Conventions. The 5.56, on the other hand, is designed to wound - not kill - infantry. In real life, even a trained hand might have great difficulty hitting at 500m. I believe 650m to be out of the SAW's range.

Can anyone confirm this?

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 01-09-2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

The SAW's 5.56 round is not even in the same league as the M2's .50. The .50 was originally designed to take down airplanes, and is technically banned from use against infantry by the Geneva Conventions. The 5.56, on the other hand, is designed to wound - not kill - infantry. In real life, even a trained hand might have great difficulty hitting at 500m. I believe 650m to be out of the SAW's range.

Can anyone confirm this?

I meant to ask earlier what is the caliber of the Saw? I never knew this in BF2.

I do not understand what 5.56 means.

In BF2, the bullets would go stratigh for maybe 150 meters then start to angle off.

I know this, the Saw is were it is at on Armed Assault. It is like having a super assault rifle and suppressive tool all in one. Thanks to the spacebar as a squad leader, simply look out, find a target, then get the distance, then judge and make it so. When the bots fail to take cover, they are done for when they go prone.
I am done with the M4.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 01-09-2007, 01:17 PM

BTW, how this happend

I got wounded and gave the sniper rifle to a bot and took his saw (aim off when wounded). I was beside him with the binocs, and useing the SL commands for him to target such and such. He never would take a shot. So I did. Atcuall distance was like 493 meters (I remember this one) for the first kill. The other kill was most likely around 600 meters tops. Regardless, the saw shoots very straight and true.
I can gurantee you a 650 meter shot in the demo. I'll try tonight on single player coop and give you all a sit rep.

As for the distance in real life, no clue.

**Wimpinator** · 01-09-2007, 01:27 PM

5.56 means the round is 5.56mm in diameter. NATO rounds are typically 5.56 and WARSAW rounds were usually 7.62.

**Wimpinator** · 01-09-2007, 01:29 PM

Here is a page with more info on the 5.56mm round Rick:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56_x_45_mm_NATO

**Strag** · 01-09-2007, 02:45 PM

A picture might help.

Attached is a left-to-right comparison of a 5.56x45mm (M193) round, a .30-06 round (7.62x63mm), and a .50 BMG round (12.7x99mm). The .30-06 round is similar to the 7.62x51mm round in performance; it can use the same bullet, but has a little more volume in the case.

**BigGaayAl** · 01-09-2007, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

The SAW's 5.56 round is not even in the same league as the M2's .50. The .50 was originally designed to take down airplanes, and is technically banned from use against infantry by the Geneva Conventions. The 5.56, on the other hand, is designed to wound - not kill - infantry. In real life, even a trained hand might have great difficulty hitting at 500m. I believe 650m to be out of the SAW's range.

Can anyone confirm this?

Don't think so:

Cartridge 5.56 x 45 mm NATO (STANAG 4172)
Action Gas-operated, open bolt
Rate of fire 725 round/min with linked
1,000 round/min with M16 magazine
Effective range 1,000 m

Now I don't know exactly how effective range is measured, but I reckon It would at least mean you can hit a human size target regularly from the specified distance.

*edit* forgot the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M249_Sq...tomatic_Weapon
Belgium, the land with an army of cardboard soldiers that makes weapons for the world.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 01-09-2007, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the education gang. I need to study up on this stuff.

**jepzilla** · 01-09-2007, 03:39 PM

The downside to the SAW is it's a big, heavy weapon, whereas the M4 is supposed to be light and easy to manoever around. This difference is modelled to some extent in the game.

**tHa_KhAn** · 01-09-2007, 03:53 PM

Here's something from Wikipedia on the round size and why AK's went to similar sized rounds as NATO:
Design of an entirely new cartridge was possibly a reaction to the effectiveness of the 5.56 × 45 mm round in Vietnam. All military rifle bullets will turn or yaw in soft tissue. Small-caliber high-velocity projectiles like the 5.56 mm produce significant wounds because they yaw much sooner in soft tissue, greatly increasing their frontal area.[1] The Soviets designed a round that would be similar to the 5.56 mm, but with an increased tendency to yaw. The 5.45 mm projectile consists of a mild steel core in the rear with a lead plug in front. The copper-plated steel jacket of the bullet incorporates an air space in the nose. This empty space has several functions. It moves the center of gravity rearward, encouraging yaw in soft targets. It also streamlines and lightens the projectile resulting in greater velocity, flatter trajectory, and more reliable feeding from the magazine. Finally, this space often collapses and deforms irregularly in soft targets. Despite its complicated design, the bullet fired by the AK-74 fails to reliably fragment in soft tissue making it less effective in this area than similar Western designs. It has also been shown to yaw no sooner than the 5.56 mm projectiles.

**Dslyecxi** · 01-09-2007, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by xTYBALTx

The SAW's 5.56 round is not even in the same league as the M2's .50.

Correct. .223 vs .50 is a pretty vast difference. The SAW is a light machinegun, and the M2 .50 is a heavy machinegun.

The .50 was originally designed to take down airplanes,

Haven't heard this before. As far as I know, this is false.

and is technically banned from use against infantry by the Geneva Conventions.

Completely false.

The 5.56, on the other hand, is designed to wound - not kill - infantry.

Again, completely false.

In real life, even a trained hand might have great difficulty hitting at 500m. I believe 650m to be out of the SAW's range.

Once again, false. The effective range for a SAW on a point target is 600 meters. The effective range for an area target is 1000 meters.

**Wimpinator** · 01-09-2007, 06:21 PM

I tend to remember hearing that the smaller 5.56 rounds were adopted to allow for less recoil. It was decided that the more rounds a shooter could put on target, the greater the chances of taking down the target. I believe it was around the Vietnam era when they found that it was tough to get really good marksmen so they went with volume over quality. Someone correct me if this is incorrect.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 01-09-2007, 06:30 PM

I recorded a 630 meter kill with the saw moments ago. It was a one shot one kill.

Once I put away the binocs, I could not see the enemy, but I guessed on their location using land marks.

I was holding down the i button to see the instant kill conformation take place.
This was the first kill and no one had shot anything before this. I set the rest of the squad on a nature hike and ordered them to hold their fire.

I used the squad leader spacebar function to get the distance. I pointed at the dead enemy with binocs and documented the distance.

I was higher than them, so that may explain why I did not need to aim very high to get the bullet to make contact.

Again, at closer distances, 300 meters, the Saw should be a very useful weapon at aiming to kill and acurate suppresive fire.

**Dslyecxi** · 01-09-2007, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wimpinator

I tend to remember hearing that the smaller 5.56 rounds were adopted to allow for less recoil. It was decided that the more rounds a shooter could put on target, the greater the chances of taking down the target. I believe it was around the Vietnam era when they found that it was tough to get really good marksmen so they went with volume over quality. Someone correct me if this is incorrect.

I believe that was part of it, but the bigger aspect was that a soldier/Marine could carry a great deal more ammo if it was 5.56mm versus 7.62 or similar. More ammo naturally allows for more fire to be put out by an element, which increases the likelihood of killing, wounding, or suppressing the enemy.

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