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Discussion: Simulation / Armed Assault - Recent level of play, realism and general notes - Then we shan't allow it to, Adept. On point, gentlemen. On point. The point here
  1. #16

    BarnesBL0278's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Then we shan't allow it to, Adept. On point, gentlemen. On point.

    The point here that Falcon is trying to make is not that TG should be the military, which apparently is how the word realism is perceived in the TG community, but that clear, concise communications should occur, leadership should step up and be reasonably efficient, people should follow the rules, and SOPs should be adhered to. Fun is realism, realism is fun in the ArmA community, and once we break the pubbers of the philosophy that that isn't true, they'll operate as well or better than any of the rest of us.
    In order to better encourage these basic principles which TG does clearly advertise and which we all enjoy, be it the realism grognards or the guys here just to cap a few commies, is an immersive atmosphere. You don't have to role-play, you just have to get into the game a little. Not a requirement, of course, but it does help.
    He's basically saying that through the use of more immersive mission selection, and not playing specops billy badass raids in lieu of the easier to organize infantry missions, we can encourage and rebuild the level of teamwork and cooperation that drives this community.

    As the ArmA branch of TG, we should make every other branch of TG look like an unorganized joke, really. This is an Infantry simulator, unlike any of the other games on TG. By definition, our target population will be typically more versed in tactics, more willing to utilize teamwork, and seek a more hardcore approach to gaming than those populating other TacticalGamer servers. Falcon is merely pointing this out in nicer words.

    That said, I don't feel that this thread, unlike my more ill-fated attempt at the same, will become a flame war. Timing is everything, really, and this one has good timing. I believe we can all stay rather civil. Just nobody insult anybody, and take this from a guy who knows firsthand. If you're insulted, it's sometimes better in this community to hold it in. I didn't, and I paid the price. I don't quite enjoy the same reputation, and neither will anyone who so adamantly defends themselves in such an ill-chosen manner as myself.

    Long story short, we're fine, good posts, keep the flames down, and let's keep this thread going and do it civilly so that it may actually do some good in this community. It's a very important subject that needs to be addressed, so let's stay with it.

    I bid you gentlemen good day, and happy posting. And belated happy T-Day too.
    Barnes, Brandon L.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

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  3. #17

    KoopaTroopa's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I'm getting another vibe separate from the gameplay point.

    Please check my PM, Falcon, so I know if I'm correct in suspecting that some disrespect was happening in the server.

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  5. #18


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Ok here is my opinion if you notice my track record I don't post in these threads because I hate them I am going to say two things and don't care what is thought about them. Falcon if you were being disrespected don't post this send a pm to a admin or jeepo if this is yet another crying thread about gameplay email and admin. these threads ate getting old and boring. Falcon I ain't got know problem with you we worked ok together the few times we did. But to be honest all you guys post about following procedures and rules but can't do it. I beleive all complaints about players and servers go to the admins in a special forum.... And if I remeber correctly falcon you on 2 occasions ignored my orders when I was commanding. I ain't putting you on blast falcon I understand and agree on somethings but these threads ate getting old. Email a admin with trout problems people not just falcon everyone

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  7. #19


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Boondocksaint View Post
    Falcon if you were being disrespected don't post this send a pm to a admin or jeepo if this is yet another crying thread about gameplay email and admin.
    First off let me say this has nothing to do with any particular incident or any prolonged disrespect by anyone, I 100% agree with you boon I find crying threads are unproductive and if I have problems with people I will deal with in private with or without the help of the admin staff as needed. THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD. The purpose is to discuss what I feel is a slip in TG standards and a relaxing of the proud TG tradition of teaching and leadership through example of good realistic fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eavy Gunner View Post
    But remember it is a game. If I wanted super-uber-realism, I would join airsoft or join the Army.
    This isn't about uber-realism though, its about using real world practices to enhance the gaming experience. There are many real world practices that have no use or correlation to a game even ArmA so I don't think its wise to try and emulate them. However organization, communication, teamwork and tactics offer many real world things that we can draw from in order to make playing on TG a much better experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zedic
    how many mission FAILED do we have on average compared to SUCCESS?
    I think Zedic makes a good point I think a good way of promoting teamwork and teamplay in general is trying to win and making winning a priority. Obviously teamwork should still be our top priority but it seems recently that people aren't too concerned with winning but instead getting in the most action possible. I think that this lowers the value of team play and planning which I think we can agree are hallmarks of good TG games. I'm not saying that we should try to win sacrificing all else but we should use realistic metrics for deciding at each stage in a mission if continuing is feasible which would force commanders to try and reduce casualties, mission makers should punish excessive casualties and give options to end the mission early with minor and major victory conditions or something similar. I think this will increase our mission rate and prevent the situation of the 5 last guys taking 20 minuets to find an uber sneaky way to finishing the mission and usually failing.

    Again I think at the end of the day it comes back to everyone's attitude and their commitment to take the time and do things right. I think we should try to blend realism with gameplay and come up with a system that gets at the core elements of what it means to be in a fireteam, squad, platoon, vehicle crew etc. Even if the details have to be put aside. And that's ok.
    -Falcon

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  9. #20

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I personally think we shouldn't making winning a priority. Making winning a priotity means giving exploiting priority, because people will always take the fastest, quickest and easiest way to winning. Some missions are well designed to prevent this, others are a bit lacking in design to counter this, which depending on missions can be understandable not to kill the server with amount of AI, etc.

    I say: Screw winning. Try to make sure people have fun, and if we win it's a bonus we can rejoice in. Really trying to win often comes at the cost of a lot of people's fun, and as far as I know we ain't getting paid to do this as a job, where it's fine to do things the boring way since it puts food on your table




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  11. #21

    Hank Rearden's Avatar

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    Post Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I don't mind your missions, Falcon. I do wish you wouldn't command, however... or would consider reading some command philosophy doctrine before doing so.

    Here are my suggested concepts:

    Behfelstaktik:
    (lit. detailed-order tactics), control by detailed order or command push. - Wikipedia

    The above school of tactics was applied extensively by Russian commandants during the second-world war and has been disproven as an effective means of leadership. Commanders would quite literally issue orders to their subordinates about which directions they were to face, where they were to stand and what gear or equipment their men were to carry precisely. The philosophy is akin to the collectivist nature of communism, expecting that every man is willing to die as a comrade collectively and will stand to the last for his Commander's orders, precisely where he was told to die. This model, favouring micromanagement is inherently attritional by nature resulting in catastrophic casualties as NCOs and Junior Officers lack the capacity to execute tactical-level decision making, due to a fear of transgressing against senior orders.

    Auftragstaktik:
    In mission-type tactics the military commander gives their subordinate leaders a clearly defined goal (the mission) and the forces needed to accomplish that goal with a time within which the goal must be reached. The subordinate leaders then implement the order independently. The subordinate leader is given, to a large extent, the planning initiative and a freedom in execution which allows flexibility in execution. Mission-type tactics free higher leadership from tactical details. Thus, strictly speaking the German word is something of a misnomer. It is not a tactic per se (and certainly not limited to the tacticals). It is more of a method of leadership. Thus, the proper German designation is Führen durch Auftrag, literally leading by task as opposed to Führen durch Befehl, i.e. leading by orders. Direct orders are an exception in the German armed forces, while "tasks" are the standard instrument of leadership from high command down to squad level. - Wikipedia

    This above school of leadership delegates tasks to subordinate (junior officers and NCO's) who relay the orders to their men, formulate their own plan of attack within the rough framework of commander's intent and achieve results independently, working in coordination with other independent force groupings ranging from fireteams up to companies. The focus in this command philosophy is that strong individuals working toward achieving tasks (provided they perform their own duties as a unit diligently) will both respect their abilities and

    Emergent Leadership/Emergent Behavior:
    An emergent behavior or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective. If emergence happens over disparate size scales, then the reason is usually a causal relation across different scales. In other words there is often a form of top-down feedback in systems with emergent properties. The processes from which emergent properties result may occur in either the observed or observing system, and can commonly be identified by their patterns of accumulating change, most generally called 'growth'. Why emergent behaviours occur include: intricate causal relations across different scales and feedback, known as interconnectivity. - Wikipedia

    Emergent behaviors are those which manifest spontaneously (as the name implies). Emergent Behavior is unpredictable, but can be theoretically be plotted. In its purest form it is similar to a hivemind. Ants and swarming bees represent the pinnacle of emergent behavior in the natural world. Emergent leadership is the sudden transferal of responsibility from a leader to his subordinate (usually by necessity/chain of command), and is measured quantitatively as the speed with which the subordinate accepts the new position of responsibility and assumes command. The best example of emergent behavior in ARMA2 is the artificial intelligence which responds to orders like 'Formation: Echelon Left' with an uncanny speed and certainty, forming a perfect Echelon directly to the squad leader's left, perfectly spaced and adjusting position/orientation in response to his every movement. When a commander is terminated, the AI responds within milliseconds, delegating the next tasks, a direct transferal of consciousness, understanding perfectly what the previous squad leader was doing.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your command style is inherently that of Behfelstaktik and that you prefer emergent behavior styles. The assumption in emergent behavior is that the central intelligence of the 'hive mind' is more intelligent than its members (the commander). The reason that task-driven command philosophy is used in contemporary fourth generation warfare, idea driven, OOTW, EBO et al. is because while commanders are expected to be educated, the assumption that their 'view' of a battlespace is somehow superior by virtue of rank or intelligence is incorrect. Subordinates require initiative to operate effectively in asymmetrical warfare conditions. Commanders delegate tasks, not the situation of individual units. I speak from experience because I had some rather frustrating personal experiences in Project Reality as a commander, came over to ARMA2 and educated myself as to the precise nature of command philosophy. Commanders are responsible for delegating tasks and ensuring that the needs of their subordinates are adequately met and their actions are synchronized according to his/her intent. Based on your demonstrated love for emergent behavior and order-driven command philosophy, I'd suggest that you do not in fact enjoy playing with other players and prefer the perfect synchronicity of teamwork you experience while commanding artificial intelligences.

    Conclusion:

    So, my commentary is this: The next time you command, think about the concepts I've just explained to you. Engender competence and cohesiveness not through authoritarian shouting or strict and prescriptive order-driven tactics, but rather by allowing your team-members to adapt themselves to functioning as team members, whose individual skills and abilities contribute to the success of your objectives, rather than clashing with your command structure at every step. If you want to delegate tasks to individual NCM's, consider joining as a squad (or better yet, fireteam) leader. That's about where it is acceptable to prescribe the situation of individual personnel in the battlespace. Patrol officers, upper NCOs and Officers should strive to stay out of the line of fire as much as possible and direct units towards objectives. Specific bits of kits like satchel charges or antitank weapons are squad-based but their use can certainly be overriden by platoon if the need arises. Just bear this in mind, they're my suggestions.

    On the topic of your maps, I'll say this: I enjoy the scenarios greatly, but generally feel as though I'm a Reservist who has been hastily deployed to the field as part of some widespread conscription. You equip your men like conscripts and beat them like dogs. The USMC or any other modern fighting force would not go to war against the forces of Russia or a band of Insurgents with 21 men, 2 mortars, M-16s an MTVR and some Paraflares. Maybe it's something that you don't like, but the Military Industrial Complex (to which you owe most of the amenities of your life, including the computer you are playing on) manages to remain what it is because it keeps (and has kept since NSC 68/2) a serious technological edge over all global competitors. Perhaps you long for the days of equally matched forces beating each other down with purely attritional might, but we're only successful at assymetrical engagement and MOUT because we have the technological and doctrinal edge over our competitors. Comrade Falcon, your map making skills are unparalleled, I only wish you'd pay tribute to the glories of modern technology and stop hating all the amazing toys that let soldiers soldier as individual strong links in a cohesive and initiative-driven chain of command.


    If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.
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    'The Great Game' -Blog on War in Afghanistan: www.afghanistanjournal.blogspot.com

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  13. #22


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden View Post
    I don't mind your missions, Falcon. I do wish you wouldn't command, however... or would consider reading some command philosophy doctrine before doing so.

    Here are my suggested concepts:

    Behfelstaktik:
    (lit. detailed-order tactics), control by detailed order or command push.

    The above school of tactics was applied extensively by Russian commandants during the second-world war and has been disproven as an effective means of leadership. Commanders would quite literally issue orders to their subordinates about which directions they were to face, where they were to stand and what gear or equipment their men were to carry precisely. The philosophy is akin to the collectivist nature of communism, expecting that every man is willing to die as a comrade collectively and will stand to the last for his Commander's orders, precisely where he was told to die. This model, favouring micromanagement is inherently attritional by nature resulting in catastrophic casualties as NCOs and Junior Officers lack the capacity to execute tactical-level decision making, due to a fear of transgressing against senior orders.

    Auftragstaktik:
    In mission-type tactics the military commander gives their subordinate leaders a clearly defined goal (the mission) and the forces needed to accomplish that goal with a time within which the goal must be reached. The subordinate leaders then implement the order independently. The subordinate leader is given, to a large extent, the planning initiative and a freedom in execution which allows flexibility in execution. Mission-type tactics free higher leadership from tactical details. Thus, strictly speaking the German word is something of a misnomer. It is not a tactic per se (and certainly not limited to the tacticals). It is more of a method of leadership. Thus, the proper German designation is Führen durch Auftrag, literally leading by task as opposed to Führen durch Befehl, i.e. leading by orders. Direct orders are an exception in the German armed forces, while "tasks" are the standard instrument of leadership from high command down to squad level.

    This above school of leadership delegates tasks to subordinate (junior officers and NCO's) who relay the orders to their men, formulate their own plan of attack within the rough framework of commander's intent and achieve results independently, working in coordination with other independent force groupings ranging from fireteams up to companies. The focus in this command philosophy is that strong individuals working toward achieving tasks (provided they perform their own duties as a unit diligently) will both respect their abilities and

    Emergent Leadership/Emergent Behavior:
    Emergent behaviors are those which manifest spontaneously (as the name implies). Emergent Behavior is unpredictable, but can be theoretically be plotted. In its purest form it is similar to a hivemind. Ants and swarming bees represent the pinnacle of emergent behavior in the natural world. Emergent leadership is the sudden transferal of responsibility from a leader to his subordinate (usually by necessity/chain of command), and is measured quantitatively as the speed with which the subordinate accepts the new position of responsibility and assumes command. The best example of emergent behavior in ARMA2 is the artificial intelligence which responds to orders like 'Formation: Echelon Left' with an uncanny speed and certainty, forming a perfect Echelon directly to the squad leader's left, perfectly spaced and adjusting position/orientation in response to his every movement. When a commander is terminated, the AI responds within milliseconds, delegating the next tasks, a direct transferal of consciousness, understanding perfectly what the previous squad leader was doing.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your command style is inherently that of Behfelstaktik and that you prefer emergent behavior styles. The assumption in emergent behavior is that the central intelligence of the 'hive mind' is more intelligent than its members (the commander). The reason that task-driven command philosophy is used in contemporary fourth generation warfare, idea driven, OOTW, EBO et al. is because while commanders are expected to be educated, the assumption that their 'view' of a battlespace is somehow superior by virtue of rank or intelligence is incorrect. Subordinates require initiative to operate effectively in asymmetrical warfare conditions. Commanders delegate tasks, not the situation of individual units. I speak from experience because I had some rather frustrating personal experiences in Project Reality as a commander, came over to ARMA2 and educated myself as to the precise nature of command philosophy. Commanders are responsible for delegating tasks and ensuring that the needs of their subordinates are adequately met and their actions are synchronized according to his/her intent. Based on your demonstrated love for emergent behavior and order-driven command philosophy, I'd suggest that you do not in fact enjoy playing with other players and prefer the perfect synchronicity of teamwork you experience while commanding artificial intelligences.

    So, my commentary is this: The next time you command, think about the concepts I've just explained to you. Engender competence and cohesiveness not through authoritarian shouting or strict and prescriptive order-driven tactics, but rather by allowing your team-members to adapt themselves to functioning as team members, whose individual skills and abilities contribute to the success of your objectives, rather than clashing with your command structure at every step. If you want to delegate tasks to individual NCM's, consider joining as a squad (or better yet, fireteam) leader. That's about where it is acceptable to prescribe the situation of individual personnel in the battlespace. Patrol officers, upper NCOs and Officers should strive to stay out of the line of fire as much as possible and direct units towards objectives. Specific bits of kits like satchel charges or antitank weapons are squad-based but their use can certainly be overriden by platoon if the need arises. Just bear this in mind, they're my suggestions.

    On the topic of your maps, I'll say this: I enjoy the scenarios greatly, but generally feel as though I'm a Reservist who has been hastily deployed to the field as part of some widespread conscription. You equip your men like conscripts and beat them like dogs. The USMC or any other modern fighting force would not go to war against the forces of Russia or a band of Insurgents with 21 men, 2 mortars, M-16s an MTVR and some Paraflares. Maybe it's something that you don't like, but the Military Industrial Complex (to which you owe most of the amenities of your life, including the computer you are playing on) manages to remain what it is because it keeps (and has kept since NSC 68/2) a serious technological edge over all global competitors. Perhaps you long for the days of equally matched forces beating each other down with purely attritional might, but we're only successful at assymetrical engagement and MOUT because we have the technological and doctrinal edge over our competitors. Comrade Falcon, your map making skills are unparalleled, I only wish you'd pay tribute to the glories of modern technology and stop hating all the amazing toys that let soldiers soldier as individual strong links in a cohesive and initiative-driven chain of command.
    I disagree with everything you said bud..sorry you don't learn tactics from reading books, you learn by doing. I never take my arma tactics to the RL field cause I would die. Its a game and he can step up and command all he wants.

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  15. #23

    ThePieSpy's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    If i may add to your post Falcon, removing the all-in-one ammo crates would be nice as well. Theres not much incentive for people to actually fill their role in a squad when everyone can just grab a Sniper Rifle and a SMAW with no weight repercussions that ACE for ArmA1 had.

    Zedic also mentioned the discrepancy between now and back in August. I can't recall if we were still using teamspeak in August but it seemed like communication was a hell of a lot smoother using TS instead of ingame voip. I'd be all for making TS mandatory on Alpha, most of the players on alpha are in teamspeak anyways and commanders often resort to it because it becomes simply impossible to relay orders to people with the poor quality of ArmAII's voip.

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  17. #24

    Inkompetent's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Just a post on the equipment in Falcon's missions. They aren't geared like conscripts or yadda-yadda. They are geared like in 1990, because that is how he wants it in his missions. That is the kind of gear he thinks promotes teamplay. I agree.

    Then I can also agree that the equipment roster in those missions can be a bit rigid, since soldiers usually get packed with mission-specific ammunition and weapons. Speaking of such, breaching charges would be nice to have. Satchels packs too much of a boom.




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  19. #25

    BarnesBL0278's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I personally have no problem with his mission loading, with a single exception: Ammunition. We NEED some resupply desperately, but me and Falcon talked about that one night and he agreed, so scratch my only real complaint.

    As for the leadership styles, Hank Reardon is right in some ways, though to say that Falcon is always authoritarian is not necessarily true. I usually end up as a squad leader on his missions, and he generally takes council from his SL's. I can't speak on behalf of the formation setups, because my squad usually has the formation down pat quickly, thanks to outstanding fireteam leaders. I can see him getting meticulous at times, but in no way does this negate his capabilities as a leader. We all have off-days. But, one of the 11 leader ship principles is to know your weaknesses and seek self-improvement, so hey. Never can learn enough I suppose.

    BACK ON TOPIC. This thread is not about Falcon's missions insomuch as ways that we can regain the TG way of life on the servers without mailing them dogtags and ID cards and holding courts martial.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

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  21. #26


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden View Post
    I don't mind your missions, Falcon. I do wish you wouldn't command, however... or would consider reading some command philosophy doctrine before doing so.

    Here are my suggested concepts:

    Behfelstaktik:
    (lit. detailed-order tactics), control by detailed order or command push. - Wikipedia

    The above school of tactics was applied extensively by Russian commandants during the second-world war and has been disproven as an effective means of leadership. Commanders would quite literally issue orders to their subordinates about which directions they were to face, where they were to stand and what gear or equipment their men were to carry precisely. The philosophy is akin to the collectivist nature of communism, expecting that every man is willing to die as a comrade collectively and will stand to the last for his Commander's orders, precisely where he was told to die. This model, favouring micromanagement is inherently attritional by nature resulting in catastrophic casualties as NCOs and Junior Officers lack the capacity to execute tactical-level decision making, due to a fear of transgressing against senior orders.

    Auftragstaktik:
    In mission-type tactics the military commander gives their subordinate leaders a clearly defined goal (the mission) and the forces needed to accomplish that goal with a time within which the goal must be reached. The subordinate leaders then implement the order independently. The subordinate leader is given, to a large extent, the planning initiative and a freedom in execution which allows flexibility in execution. Mission-type tactics free higher leadership from tactical details. Thus, strictly speaking the German word is something of a misnomer. It is not a tactic per se (and certainly not limited to the tacticals). It is more of a method of leadership. Thus, the proper German designation is Führen durch Auftrag, literally leading by task as opposed to Führen durch Befehl, i.e. leading by orders. Direct orders are an exception in the German armed forces, while "tasks" are the standard instrument of leadership from high command down to squad level. - Wikipedia

    This above school of leadership delegates tasks to subordinate (junior officers and NCO's) who relay the orders to their men, formulate their own plan of attack within the rough framework of commander's intent and achieve results independently, working in coordination with other independent force groupings ranging from fireteams up to companies. The focus in this command philosophy is that strong individuals working toward achieving tasks (provided they perform their own duties as a unit diligently) will both respect their abilities and

    Emergent Leadership/Emergent Behavior:
    An emergent behavior or emergent property can appear when a number of simple entities (agents) operate in an environment, forming more complex behaviors as a collective. If emergence happens over disparate size scales, then the reason is usually a causal relation across different scales. In other words there is often a form of top-down feedback in systems with emergent properties. The processes from which emergent properties result may occur in either the observed or observing system, and can commonly be identified by their patterns of accumulating change, most generally called 'growth'. Why emergent behaviours occur include: intricate causal relations across different scales and feedback, known as interconnectivity. - Wikipedia

    Emergent behaviors are those which manifest spontaneously (as the name implies). Emergent Behavior is unpredictable, but can be theoretically be plotted. In its purest form it is similar to a hivemind. Ants and swarming bees represent the pinnacle of emergent behavior in the natural world. Emergent leadership is the sudden transferal of responsibility from a leader to his subordinate (usually by necessity/chain of command), and is measured quantitatively as the speed with which the subordinate accepts the new position of responsibility and assumes command. The best example of emergent behavior in ARMA2 is the artificial intelligence which responds to orders like 'Formation: Echelon Left' with an uncanny speed and certainty, forming a perfect Echelon directly to the squad leader's left, perfectly spaced and adjusting position/orientation in response to his every movement. When a commander is terminated, the AI responds within milliseconds, delegating the next tasks, a direct transferal of consciousness, understanding perfectly what the previous squad leader was doing.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your command style is inherently that of Behfelstaktik and that you prefer emergent behavior styles. The assumption in emergent behavior is that the central intelligence of the 'hive mind' is more intelligent than its members (the commander). The reason that task-driven command philosophy is used in contemporary fourth generation warfare, idea driven, OOTW, EBO et al. is because while commanders are expected to be educated, the assumption that their 'view' of a battlespace is somehow superior by virtue of rank or intelligence is incorrect. Subordinates require initiative to operate effectively in asymmetrical warfare conditions. Commanders delegate tasks, not the situation of individual units. I speak from experience because I had some rather frustrating personal experiences in Project Reality as a commander, came over to ARMA2 and educated myself as to the precise nature of command philosophy. Commanders are responsible for delegating tasks and ensuring that the needs of their subordinates are adequately met and their actions are synchronized according to his/her intent. Based on your demonstrated love for emergent behavior and order-driven command philosophy, I'd suggest that you do not in fact enjoy playing with other players and prefer the perfect synchronicity of teamwork you experience while commanding artificial intelligences.

    Conclusion:

    So, my commentary is this: The next time you command, think about the concepts I've just explained to you. Engender competence and cohesiveness not through authoritarian shouting or strict and prescriptive order-driven tactics, but rather by allowing your team-members to adapt themselves to functioning as team members, whose individual skills and abilities contribute to the success of your objectives, rather than clashing with your command structure at every step. If you want to delegate tasks to individual NCM's, consider joining as a squad (or better yet, fireteam) leader. That's about where it is acceptable to prescribe the situation of individual personnel in the battlespace. Patrol officers, upper NCOs and Officers should strive to stay out of the line of fire as much as possible and direct units towards objectives. Specific bits of kits like satchel charges or antitank weapons are squad-based but their use can certainly be overriden by platoon if the need arises. Just bear this in mind, they're my suggestions.

    On the topic of your maps, I'll say this: I enjoy the scenarios greatly, but generally feel as though I'm a Reservist who has been hastily deployed to the field as part of some widespread conscription. You equip your men like conscripts and beat them like dogs. The USMC or any other modern fighting force would not go to war against the forces of Russia or a band of Insurgents with 21 men, 2 mortars, M-16s an MTVR and some Paraflares. Maybe it's something that you don't like, but the Military Industrial Complex (to which you owe most of the amenities of your life, including the computer you are playing on) manages to remain what it is because it keeps (and has kept since NSC 68/2) a serious technological edge over all global competitors. Perhaps you long for the days of equally matched forces beating each other down with purely attritional might, but we're only successful at assymetrical engagement and MOUT because we have the technological and doctrinal edge over our competitors. Comrade Falcon, your map making skills are unparalleled, I only wish you'd pay tribute to the glories of modern technology and stop hating all the amazing toys that let soldiers soldier as individual strong links in a cohesive and initiative-driven chain of command.
    Here is the problem I would love to be able to command in the way you mentioned by giving objectives pointing out things to consider and in battle keeping aprasied of the overall situation in order to adabt quickly to changes but the fact is that doesn't work the way you think it does on TG right now.

    If I were to command in the style you suggest this is the way it would go. I would say for instance, lets move to this cross roads then into town and take it, we know there are enemy positions here, here, here etc. etc. etc. What would happen is 3 squads would run in one huge mess all tangled together they would stop at the cross roads where everyone would from 3 small circles looking at their SL's. If we continued they would all run along the same axis of attack into town and if by some miracle we hadn't been all mowed down by an MG and managed to clear it we would sit in the middle of town looking at each other. The fact is that your initiative-driven chain of command relies heavily on effective squad level and sub-squad level unit cohesion, effective and prolific intersquad communications and not only individual initiative but the knowledge of what to do.

    The simple fact is TG is not there, not in our communication procedures not in our level of unit cohesion and not in our basic infantry skills. I think commanding at a higher level is a good goal to have but the simple fact is that in my experience more direction is needed, this is why I am more specific is squad movements and facings and put emphasis on formations, so that squads can be deconflicted, put good effect on target and the platoon can be covered from unexpected attacks. However from everything I have ever read I also think that you are confusing some higher level (battalion and divisional) level concepts with tactics. A platoon commanders job is to direct the general movement and fire of his squads as well as platoon level assets, direct fire support and coordinate with both higher command and other friendly forces.

    Just a few more things about my commanding, one of the best ways to get me to stop micromanaging is take charge, get a squad organized and acting intelligently with organized fireteams that know what their doing and I can give you more general orders. Also even when I direct more specific things I am only trying to do so in order promote deconfliction etc. orders are not commandments. If I put a mark on the map and its in a bad spot don't set you squad up there, its impossible for a commander to see everything at once, use some tactical sense deploy else were but let me know that's all I ask.

    Again I think promoting some advanced infantry schooling and playing some more infantry centeric maps would go a long way in making TG a better and more tight knit experience. Once we get good at infantry we can branch out but as I said before, crawl, walk run.
    -Falcon

    P.S.
    Quote Originally Posted by BarnesBL0278 View Post
    I personally have no problem with his mission loading, with a single exception: Ammunition. We NEED some resupply desperately, but me and Falcon talked about that one night and he agreed, so scratch my only real complaint.

    As for the leadership styles, Hank Reardon is right in some ways, though to say that Falcon is always authoritarian is not necessarily true. I usually end up as a squad leader on his missions, and he generally takes council from his SL's. I can't speak on behalf of the formation setups, because my squad usually has the formation down pat quickly, thanks to outstanding fireteam leaders. I can see him getting meticulous at times, but in no way does this negate his capabilities as a leader. We all have off-days. But, one of the 11 leader ship principles is to know your weaknesses and seek self-improvement, so hey. Never can learn enough I suppose.

    BACK ON TOPIC. This thread is not about Falcon's missions insomuch as ways that we can regain the TG way of life on the servers without mailing them dogtags and ID cards and holding courts martial.
    No I admit I am not a perfect platoon leader but I'm also not a Lieutenant in the army so I don't lead a platoon for a living. But I try to do my best and apply what I know of the way it is done in the real world to TG.

    NOW BACK ON TOPIC!!!

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  23. #27

    Inkompetent's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I must actually agree with Falcon. I didn't feel motivated to write such a long post myself in my last reply in this thread, so I'll start by saying thank you to Barnes and Falon for writing most of what I wanted said.

    I would *wish* that one could say "I want a platoon column up until the assault point, all squads in wedges. At assault point I want the platoon to fall out to the right, Alpha and Bravo as fire base, with the machine gun section on the far right. Charlie and the assault section will assault around the right flank. Order of march is Alpha, Bravo, machine guns, HQ, Charlie, and assault section." and actually get something done without squads blocking eachothers' line of fire and getting mixed up at the fire base so that the grunts are happy if they are together with their fire team, even less their squad leader.

    We need practice to get there, but we aren't practicing on that, thus command HAS to act Warzawa Pact Company Commander trying to get things done, and at the same time squads feel so micromanaged they can't breathe.

    We as a community need to take responsibility to step it up to the next level if we want to get things done. No one will learn neither to be a platoon leader, squad leader, fire team leader, or grunt, in a system like a platoon, unless we decide to exercise it.

    Our squads work fairly well individually. Now we need to get them to work in the next level of command and control hierarchy.




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  25. #28


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkompetent View Post
    Our squads work fairly well individually. Now we need to get them to work in the next level of command and control hierarchy.
    BEAUTIFUL Inkompetent takes my page of ramblings and turns it into one sentence.

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Oh, and a note on soldier spacing! It is VERY important that people keep the appropriate spacing in a platoon, because if we move in open terrain and 15m spacing is expected between each soldier. If a squad in the middle of a platoon line move with an avarage of 5m spacing, there won't be any space for them to fan out on even if they want to, beause the other squads are probably 15 meters from each of that squad's flanks.




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  29. #30

    Sc[ + ]pe's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    What we need is some goddamn STORM CHASER with extra helpings of BADLY-DONE ACCENTS.

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