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Discussion: Simulation / Armed Assault - Recent level of play, realism and general notes - Well.... sadly I'm still working a pathfinders class mission...but real life pathfinders are recon dudes
  1. #76

    Miles Teg's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Well.... sadly I'm still working a pathfinders class mission...but real life pathfinders are recon dudes that set up landing zones for air assault and airborne operations. Anyone designated a pathfinder (if a good leader) should have such a class under his belt to earn the badge.


    But seriously we all know who the best leaders are and some of them are not 100% all the time. Some have their good missions and their really really bad missions. So we gotta stay positive and support each other.
    Hooah! (Or "OoooraaaaAAH!!" if you're a Marine....not sure what the Brits and Canadians say...."Huzzah"?)
    "LETS ROLL GROUNDHOGS!!!" -Supreme Bashar Miles Teg (Heretics of Dune)


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  3. #77

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    right, time for tea lads...

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  5. #78

    Hank Rearden's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Yeah, there are a few of us, spread amongst various nationalities. Barnes is in the Marines, we used to have a guy in the Israeli military. I spent 8 years in the Army.

    All the stuff you said was good, I agree with your tactics. Unfortunately, when someone steps up and takes CO, the SLs and everyone below the CO take the implied oath to follow their orders. Make suggestions in the pre-mission Command channel chat, but once the mission kicks off, follow the CO's orders whether or not you agree. You can request adjustments to the orders, you can suggest different options, you can ask, "Are you really sure you want me to do that?", but ultimately do what the CO decides. A good majority of those players that step up and volunteer to be the CO may not have any idea what separates a "good plan" from a "bad plan". If its a WWII frontal assault against a strongly-defended hill, then get to assaulting. If its a long, boring, 20 km column march to an objective over an open field, then get to marching.

    Your example of where you disregarded Falcon's orders was in itself a tactically-sound maneuver, but conduct-wise it was incorrect and goes against our Primer (the overarching rules of how to conduct oneself while playing in any Tactical Gamer servers). Don't take matters into your own hands. If the CO is killed, then take over your squad and evaluate the situation and adjust the plan accordingly. If all Squad Leads take matters into their own hands and disregard CO orders (even ones that are insane and would real-world lead the CO to being relieved and facing a court martial) then we have no structure to the server.

    Falcon likes to micromanage, Soviet-style. Other COs take the US approach of disseminating orders and letting Squad Leaders take care of their subordinates. Whichever the style, follow the orders.
    Gill. Perhaps you should check precedent. A guy got banned from Project Reality because of his command style and repeatedly asking for disciplinary action against experienced players who were unwilling to follow his autocratic and micromanaging orders. I think that TG also enforces competence in commanders, not following orders to the letter which will result in a half hour wait as a crow. Especially not when it results in a half-hour wait as a crow.

    My question wasn't about whether we had military members. I know -that-. My question was about whether we had commissioned -officers- Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Col. etc. playing.


    If the leader is filled with high ambition and if he pursues his aims with audacity and strength of will, he will reach them in spite of all obstacles.
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  7. #79

    BarnesBL0278's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Hank, I'm going to say this once. I have no problem with your theory on leadership, but rather the understanding of it that you portray.

    What you refer to is not referred to in the german terms in the United States Military. In fact, it's referred to as the principles of Maneuver Warfare and tactics-based leadership.

    In leadership, there's many factors, but we'll forgo all of those. I'd advise you to pick up some literature on it though, namely the 14 leadership traits and the 11 leadership principles. One thing you've got to remember is that there is never a right or wrong answer except the answer you give. Leading is kind of like playing who wants to be a millionaire. You can change your mind all you want, but once you say your final answer, tough cookies, that's it. The last thing a subordinate needs to be doing in any situation is changing his orders. Quite frankly, you're expendable. If your tactical situation is questionable, that's too bad. You have your orders, do the best you can with them, but do NOT disobey.

    Being flexible with orders doesn't come down to just changing them on a whim, my friend. And if your career aim is to become a military officer, I'd advise you to remember that to lead one must first follow. And don't ever insinuate that just because a man is a commisioned officer he is somehow better or more knowledgeable on leadership.

    Allow me to explain the chain of command. Everyone leads three people.
    End of explanation.

    How, you ask, does the company commander of 3 platoons lead three people, when the squad leader leads but a few fireteams?

    Because there are 4 men in a fireteam, 3 fireteams in a squad, 3 sqauds in a platoon, and usually 3 platoons to a company, though there may well be 4 or 5. Interesting concept here that you actually cited yourself. Delegation of authority to the lowest man. Command becomes easier as it goes higher, actually. See, the fireteam leader actually has to individually place men behind cover, lay in their SAW, draw out the fireteam sketch, and mark lateral limits for every position they occupy. The squad leader just takes the fireteam leader's positions, maybe moves them some, and sends it up, so on and so forth.
    What it really comes down to is that each level of command only talks to the level directly below or directly above them. This allows for things to move smoother and more efficiently, as having anyone lead 500 men into the fray and having to actually LEAD all of them would blow somebody's circuits, and thus get men killed. The Platoon Leader should NEVER be all up into a squad unless the squad leader sent it up. Alternatively, a squad leader heads the platoon leaders words like gospel, and offers his advice and his experience for the senior man to call upon. The squad leader should never get all up in the fireteam, and so on up and down.
    The squad leader calls a meeting with his fireteam leaders, gleans them for tactical information. He can either make a decision within the bounds of HIS mission (That given by the platoon leader) or if necessary to stray, call into the PL and advise him of the new situation. Or the PL might call a meeting with the squad leaders and take their input prior to tasking them out. Either or, his call. But whatever call he makes must stick.
    In truth, the difference between an officer and an NCO is nothing but paperwork. The Officer has politics to play, has paperwork to push, and administrative BS that weighs him down so heavily he wants to commit suicide. This does not make him a better or more important leader.

    And so you know, anybody who's been in the military, from the lowest private to the Chief of Staff, has had more hours of leadership training and OJT than you can possibly imagine. So don't let me catch you negating enlisted men around here. I won't be very happy.

    That said, your book knowledge is very good, and you're quite well learned in principle. However, you need to work on the application of that knowledge, and before you can do that, the interpretation of its meaning. Some of the conclusions you've drawn are more than a little off the mark. Now that's not to say you're on the wrong track, it's merely interpretation error, but if somebody doesn't tell you, you're gonna mess up.

    Long story short, do what you're told in-server. If you have a better idea, bring it up IN PRIVATE, as one of the principles of following is don't second guess your command in public. If he doesn't listen, buckle up, grit your teeth, and soldier on as the army says. Or as we Marines prefer, go to the PX, get you a box of straws, and suck it the (Insert expletive) up.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

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  9. #80

    KoopaTroopa's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden View Post
    Gill. Perhaps you should check precedent. A guy got banned from Project Reality because of his command style and repeatedly asking for disciplinary action against experienced players who were unwilling to follow his autocratic and micromanaging orders. I think that TG also enforces competence in commanders, not following orders to the letter which will result in a half hour wait as a crow. Especially not when it results in a half-hour wait as a crow.

    My question wasn't about whether we had military members. I know -that-. My question was about whether we had commissioned -officers- Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Col. etc. playing.
    I can't speak for the PR admin team, and I won't speculate into the reasoning behind that player's ban. That's simply not how we do it here. I'll pull aside a CO who isn't taking the role seriously or is verbally abusing the community, but none of the admins here will ever punish a player for his command style as long as he's trying.

    Also, like Barnes said, generally the most experienced man in a unit will be the senior noncommissioned officer. In a company, the Platoon Sergeant is mentoring the young wet-behind-the-ears Lieutenant in how to be an effective leader of the enlisted guys. The First Sergeant usually has around 15 years (plus or minus years based on his MOS) whereas the CO has... 4? 6? Only up at the general-level do generals start catching up with the Command Sergeants' Major (Sergeants Major in the Marine Corps) time-in-service. At that level (division, corps, etc) the Sergeants Major usually have 20+ years in service. Officers make the decisions, NCOs make those decisions happen. Woe to the officer that disregards that level of knowledge.

    But now I'm off-topic. That's real-life, this is a simulation. The few times I've CO'd, I went with what I knew and delegated authority, told my leaders what I wanted to happen, and let them take it from there. I supervised, went authoritarian when the situation called for it, but went fairly hand's-off. However, just because the in-game avatars represent the Marine Corps/Army/Russian Federation/Insurgents/Blahblahblahwhatever doesn't mean we must emulate that leadership style. It is effective, but I've also been in missions Falcon commanded where everything went fine, mission-complete.

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  11. #81

    Scotty's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Speaking of funny:

    We were pugging it in Bravo tonight had a full server, great plan. We ran for an hour all squads were staying in formations.

    We get close, Weapons squad is lined up against a wall.. I was an assistant for the AT and we were together. Someone walks up and says in Direct Communication "Hey you two need to stick with your squad"... So I am like ok and look to my left and my whole squad is maybe 10m away from us at best.. me and my AT get a good chuckle, I look around the guy seemed to have gotten far enough away... so I say "Who the hell was that dumbass talk about... our squad is right next to us ... lol"...


    a few seconds later... our CO walks up and says "The guy who is in charge of this whole mission... I see your squad" lol...

    I was laughing IRL but for a second I was like oh ****!

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  13. #82

    AdeptAbyss's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I dont like posting in these type of threads cause in the end it all ends the same but anyway had to say this.

    I see a good few posts about how we should follow the commander until death, doing everything he commands to the letter...

    Right, there have been a few times I have commanded, I'm not great at it and so dont lead all the time, but during these tiems any command I give, its simple tright forward, go here kill that, I let the SL or FT leads work out the small details, I dont mind infact I think command works better with suggestions from the guys on ground doing the fighting.

    This also applies when I'm leading a squad, if command tells me to do something I know will result in the death of my men, I will refuse, if possible offer a new suggestion, but I WILL NOT lead my men to their deaths, (which depending on the mission will result in a squad of crows or a long walk back). Telling me to walk my squad into a field while under fire and taking arty is a waste of men and wont acheive anything cept a nice pile of dead bodies, (and this has happened)

    One thing that makes a great leader is respect, Someone who takes command does not automaticly get respect because they are in a high position, respect needs to be earned, there are a few people in TG I dont respect due to what I believe to be bad leadership choices, and so tend to question their orders more. Others I nearly would follow them until death.

    I'm sure some if not all will disagree with this, but to be honest, I'm not here to play for real, I would join the army if I wanted that, I'm here to play with a group of people who like the 'idea' of realism over run and gun pew pew games.

    My name: Adept a skilled or proficient person Abyss a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity
    So I'm a very skilled deep hole :D

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  15. #83

    Inkompetent's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Well, the middle of the mission is not the place either to work out protest against decisions or plainly refuse to do things if alternative suggestions have been declined. Suck it up. Take it like a man. Then discuss it AFTER the mission with the commander, and/or write an AAR about it.

    If the leader did a terrible job you can bet your buttocks he won't get to lead the next mission anyway




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  17. #84


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hoy View Post
    I stopped playing in August, coincidence?
    I'm another one of those "rarely posting" guys, but a few of us were discussing this just a few days ago. I'm yet another one of those who stopped playing in August. The OP is spot on in the fact that our level of gameplay has dropped considerably. The level of gameplay that used to exist here was second to none. People then seemed more inclined to try. People made an effort to use proper radio procedure (more or less) but even more so, there was a level of expectation that people seemed to hold while playing. One that encouraged teamwork and discipline. One that no longer exists.

    Now, this is where my post ties in to an old post of mine:

    tacticalgamer.com/arma-2-general-discussion/148403-warfare-co-op-tvt-community.html

    I still firmly believe that one reason for the decline in quality of gameplay is VON. Now, I'm probably going to spark a new debate in here, but using VON is a downgrade from Teamspeak, even if it does "work" now.

    Numerous issues have arisen through the use of VON. For starters, when someone talks, the quality one person hears won't be the same quality another hears. People are always complaining that they are unable to understand someone, or even hear them at all. This often results in the use of Teamspeak to relay commands, briefings, etc.

    Second, many players are still using Teamspeak inspite of the existence of VON. And why not? Teamspeak is a dedicated voice chat and it's refined. It worked, and it works. Furthermore, we have access to a server, so why don't we use it? Being able to separate squads/command/etc. into channels and using command chat to allow easy communication between leaders was (and is) and effective alternative to VON; one that made sense, and one that we should never have veered from.

    All in all, I think that we all need to take a step back and analyze the way we play now, the way we used to play, and make an effort to move our ArmA2 gaming experience back to the level it once was.

    (And you can start this by signing up for classes such as Zedic's.)

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  19. #85

    BarnesBL0278's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Quote Originally Posted by AdeptAbyss View Post
    I dont like posting in these type of threads cause in the end it all ends the same but anyway had to say this.

    I see a good few posts about how we should follow the commander until death, doing everything he commands to the letter...

    Right, there have been a few times I have commanded, I'm not great at it and so dont lead all the time, but during these tiems any command I give, its simple tright forward, go here kill that, I let the SL or FT leads work out the small details, I dont mind infact I think command works better with suggestions from the guys on ground doing the fighting.

    This also applies when I'm leading a squad, if command tells me to do something I know will result in the death of my men, I will refuse, if possible offer a new suggestion, but I WILL NOT lead my men to their deaths, (which depending on the mission will result in a squad of crows or a long walk back). Telling me to walk my squad into a field while under fire and taking arty is a waste of men and wont acheive anything cept a nice pile of dead bodies, (and this has happened)

    One thing that makes a great leader is respect, Someone who takes command does not automaticly get respect because they are in a high position, respect needs to be earned, there are a few people in TG I dont respect due to what I believe to be bad leadership choices, and so tend to question their orders more. Others I nearly would follow them until death.

    I'm sure some if not all will disagree with this, but to be honest, I'm not here to play for real, I would join the army if I wanted that, I'm here to play with a group of people who like the 'idea' of realism over run and gun pew pew games.
    Adept, I can't blame you for not wanting to march into a field under fire, but you should. Period, end of story. The commander has a plan, and you've got to follow it, even if you don't know what it is. Cause you don't. To you, it might seem stupid. But to the commander who knows exactly where everyone is, it might be the one thing between the other three squads and death. You might be marching into that field so that the enemy will engage you at 2,000 yards inneffectually, while the other squads utilize cover and concealment to close on them. And sometimes, there aren't any other options anyway.

    Regardless, the hollywood propogated BS that a good squad leader who cares about his men will stand up to the evil platoon leader and say "No I won't go there" is just that. It's BS. The good squad leader who cares about his men will follow orders, because the platoon leader isn't trying to get them killed any more than he is, and by him doing something different, he is 150 percent more likely to kill MORE people than if he had just done what he was told in the first place. I've seen it happen SO MANY TIMES.

    When you decide NOT to do what the Platoon Leader says, here's what occurs.
    A) He knows what you do, and he has to reissue orders to other squads to try to adjust, wasting time and probably getting somebody killed.
    B) Everyone sees you disobey, and starts doing their own thing, thus destroying any sort of organization and chain of command.
    C) He doesn't notice it, and he makes decisions that depend on you being where he told you to go. Of course, you're not there, and so the other two squads die.

    All because you're so damned selfish you can't let your avatar get killed in order to follow the SOP's put in place by tactical gamer. I know it still says when you log in "Follow the orders of the leaders placed above you, or you will be kicked."

    That doesn't mean "When you want to." That means ALWAYS. If you have an issue, like inkompetent said, take it up with him later. Heck, take it up with him then if you want, but if he stands firm in-mission, you've got to do it, man, and if you don't, you're messing with OTHER PEOPLE'S GAMEPLAY. The world doesn't revolve around each one of us, you know.


    EDIT: You're somewhat right about a leader not having respect unless he earns it, but this is only partially true. When I was in the service, they repeatedly reminded us to "Respect the uniform, not the wearer." You may think he's the dumbest, meanest, most obscene excuse for a lifeform ever to grace the blessed soil of this fine planet, but he wears the "uniform" of platoon/squad/fireteam leader. So for that twenty minutes to a few hours, he's boss.

    EDIT 2: By the way, Adept, what is your avatar? I've been struggling over that for months, now. I even DL'd it and blew it up, but can't find out exactly what it is. YOU MUST TELL ME!!!!!!

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

    "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

    "Duty is the sublimest word in our language. Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more. You should never wish to do less." - R. E. Lee

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  21. #86


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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Sam's sarcasm is lost on you Kezei heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hoy View Post
    I stopped playing in August, coincidence?

    ...

    I tend to agree that a lot of people have stopped "trying" to play well. Frustrated, uninterested, bored, whatever the reason, a lot of people are simply avoiding a more "serious" mindset and just going at it.

    One motivated leader can turn that around VERY fast though. Unfortunately, motivated leaders in Arma have a short life-span I can speak from experience, you get burned out from constantly leading.

    The whole argument about the philosophical and theoretical approaches to leading are interesting and all, but, there is a reason why so many of the leaders become "micromanaging" or similar: people don't really know what they are doing. Granted, some people come to the server with real-life experience or previous experience, but, most don't have much. Simple stuff like "form a column", "suppressive fire", etc are foreign and strange. Now, like people are saying, delegation is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, that only works when the people you are delegating to know what they are doing. It happens more often than not that fireteam leaders don't really know exactly what they should be doing or they know, but don't do it. So, as a squad leader you tend to be doing the fireteam leader's job because they are unable/unwilling to do it. Sometimes this can happen at the squad leader level as well.

    Every mission you play is a learning environment. Don't think of it as a group of soldiers in an operational theatre, treat it as a group of candidates on a training ground. SOMEONE is new in the platoon, 99% of the time at least ONE leader is new.


    ...

    I rambled on about something and forgot where I was going. Ehhh, I'll just end it there!

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  23. #87

    tHa_KhAn's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    I read some interesting posts in here and I think Beita made a very good point. Some people are leaders out of the box and other people try to be leaders. Leading and being a good tactician are also mutually exclusive. I think too many people in ArmA do not realize that. Too much time is spent trying to be a good leader and a good tactician. As Barnes pointed out in the chain of command example, leadership at different levels requires vastly different skill sets. The Platoon leader, as it applies to a video game like ArmA, is best served by a tactician, while the squad leader needs to have the better leadership skills(Again, assuming a command structure like this is being used in the mission).

    I will never tell anyone not to attempt to be a leader or try to learn new leadership skills because for some it can work. However, in most cases people are natural leaders in the same sense that some people are natural point guards, quarterbacks, etc. Spending countless hours reading real life manuals or attending quasi training is probably not going to change most players ability to lead effectively. On the flip side, until a player steps up and attempts to lead or executes the leaders plan and play their role flawlessly(no matter how flawed the plan is), they have no place to complain or be upset.
    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

    XBL GT: Khan58


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  25. #88

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Well, for the last 2-3 games I have played on bravo, there has been great gameplay. CO - SL relationships are great, and the pubbies listened. I dunno what you guys are talking about!
    |TG|Ghost02
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    "I travel alone through the valley of the shadow of death, yet in my heart I carry no fear, for Gods hands will guide me to Truth and Honor."

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  27. #89

    Inkompetent's Avatar

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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Truth to be told I generally consider the gameplay better on Bravo than on Alpha.




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    Re: Recent level of play, realism and general notes

    Thread=Old

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