Re: Dr. Tesla: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love to Pwn

**HOTMACHINA** · 12-28-2009, 06:45 AM

Here are my thoughts in no particular order.

1: Congratulation to Mike for pushing the mission editor so hard with the fallout map, ignoring the suitability of game play I am totally in awe of your technical prowess and would like to thank you personally for showing me what can be achieved with some technical determination.

2: I do not like Poppy / Fallout / Prostitute Map as I think they require a degree of collusion that does not and should not exist in this community; I hope to not see a growth in this particular area. That said TG operates on a communal level and I will play whatever brings others enjoyment as long as it’s a reasonable timescale.

3: Those that say they do not like the concept of role-play on TG need to take a good long look at what they ask of other players when they join the server, it IS role-play, you assume the in game persona of a helicopter pilot or a CO or any of the other ROLES that we have learned in game and out. Anyone who says calling in a fire mission or coordinating a pincer movement is no more esoteric than casting a buff to kill a dragon is delusional. Be aware of what you ask for, if you remove "role-play" from TG then you might as well go play CounterStrike.

4: Perspective, is a great word with a great meaning, Fallout, Poppy et al have been played for maybe 30 collective hours? VS the thousands of hours (go do the maths) perfectly normal maps have been played, threats to "disconnect" or "go of somewhere else" seem somewhat churlish in the face of a small amount of investigation into the plausibility of "role-play" servers. I am sure that if the community had to facilitate the early testing of ACE 2 then it would never have got past Alpha, the reluctance for some members of the community to at least TRY out new things is stifling.

5: Solid tested missions, we have a lack of them, that is not the admins fault.

6: This community does need an administrative wake up call, the standards of today’s play is nothing like when I joined, I will make it a personal project to ensure an increase in the level of play and community respect that TG promotes.

7: We need new blood, if the public server had not gone online I suspect TG ARMA 2 would now be less than 20 hardcore players with a peak of 10 players at any time. As it stands we hovered around 50 for some hours yesterday, this is the best conduit to meeting and recruiting new players.

8: ARMA 2 is a game.

**1longtime** · 12-28-2009, 07:31 AM

Forgive me for stalking this thread so hard, but I wanted to add three things.

1) To the map creator:

Originally Posted by HOTMACHINA

1: Congratulation to Mike for pushing the mission editor so hard with the fallout map, ignoring the suitability of game play I am totally in awe of your technical prowess and would like to thank you personally for showing me what can be achieved with some technical determination.

I'm glad this was said, because I should have said this more. I really admire the creativity and technical skill put into the maps, so sorry if I come off harshly on the style of play.

2) Roleplaying: there's a tremendous difference between "acting" and "doing." An Arma2 soldier is the latter, but what I see happening in the experimental missions is something else. It gives me a weird vibe. Maybe it's just me. I don't want a "civilian" to pretend to grovel so I will give him a gun. It makes me physically sick to think that a real person is sitting at his computer pretending that I am his master. Five minutes later, it makes me even more sick that the same person, whom I was trying to give some dignity (so I just handed him a gun) just decided to shoot me in the back... perhaps as some final act to his master/slave show?

I don't want that twisted s*** going on in my headphones, LITERALLY inside my head... impromptu madness piped in from the internet directly to my eardrum. Does that make me weird?

Or the role reversal... maybe I get so tired of being randomly killed that I start randomly killing people. Now true... it's just a game, and I refuse to use the Direct Channel to play out some impromptu mini-drama (as the structure seems to encourage), so it's just a bad kill... I pulled the trigger, killed someone who probably didn't deserve it, and I suffer no consequences. At least I'm still alive, so the behavior is reinforced... and now bad kills are part of the fabric of the game?

I'm not sure what I'm saying exactly... In a way, I'm completely agreeing with Hotmachina that roleplaying is part of the game, but I'm coming to a completely different conclusion. BECAUSE roleplaying is a part of the game, it can't be psycho roleplaying.

3) Disconnecting.

Hotmachina, I'm just expressing my opinion, and ultimately my opinion is expressed when I disconnect. I had to look up the word "churlish" (adj. "difficult to work or deal with") and yeah, I guess I'm being churlish on certain missions, but as you can tell I really have a strong opinion about playing them. Many missions I'll stick with the server even if they aren't my top choice, but these experimental missions just cross my tolerance threshold... and they often last for hours. Sorry if I come off rough, but I can't stick it out when I feel this strongly. I fully understand that others want to play them, and I really wish sometimes there were alternatives (two TG servers were running Fallout simultaneously tonight for quite a while). I think a few TGers would jump into a third server, so I'm trying to make one available. Again, maybe I'm just overly sensitive to the whole gaming drama while others are able to have fun with it, and I do not expect the entire community to bend to my wants, but if I need to take a break from the server due to the mission I hope it is understood why.

**Jorge.PT** · 12-28-2009, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Hank Rearden

When we do play Coops, they're getting progressively disorganized. (...)

Tonight, when some members of the community did not want to play Fallout, we had no choice but to stick it out or leave. There was no alternative server open to us to go play on, and the administrators were unsympathetic and told us to take it to the forums, even though it was the third time the map had been played in the same day. (...)

These are the main reasons that made me connect allot less to the TG servers.

Originally Posted by HOTMACHINA

7: We need new blood, if the public server had not gone online I suspect TG ARMA 2 would now be less than 20 hardcore players with a peak of 10 players at any time. As it stands we hovered around 50 for some hours yesterday, this is the best conduit to meeting and recruiting new players.

I must say that I had 10 times more fun playing with the 20 hardcore players back in arma1, then I'm having with the 50 that now play arma2. I just feel that the "TG way" that we used to refer to some many times in the past is now lost, and I really would love to see the admin team reinforce that in the future, not just in a week time.

Note: By reinforce, I don't mean acting with prepotence and arrogance, but with a higher maturity and impartiality then the casual player.

**viper1986** · 12-28-2009, 09:22 AM

I gotta put my 2 cents in to this post because it's got my blood boiling.

First off I think most of the people who join really need to understand what they got themselves into when they joined. This is a community in which everyone has the right to build whatever mission they want and have it played however the community wants. If the players want to play a fallout mission because it's fun or whatever then so what. Maybe that just means that all the other missions suck perhaps. Maybe all the other missions are so 2D that they are boring and no one wants to play them. You forget that this is not a dictatorship in which the admins force mission makers what to make. Everyone has the freedom to build what they want and the constant whining that occurs these day's is far worse then the missions on the server. The constant threats people make on TS like i heard last night about leaving if this event doesn't work is fine... Leave if you don't like it, you aren't being forced to stay. The community picks what they want to play, if you don't want that then you need to make your case on the server for another mission. This is not a gated community, doors are open to anyone and everyone and if you want purely milsim style missions then they need to out perform these other types of missions. You should not be bashing the guy who made a mission that is popular, but rather on the guys who are not producing worth while milsim missions.

I personally can't stand all these dang role playing games, if I wanted to do that I'd pick one up that is properly made. This is a milsim, not some the opportunity to make some twisted mission that makes me face palm every 5 minutes. I play this game because I enjoy milsim's and yes this community needs to get it's butt back into gear and the right direction but who am I to tell another guy to stop building what he is building.

...I am going off on a tangent with the next bit...

I am taking a shot in the dark but I have a feeling that lack in missions is probably the fault of maps. What we currently have are not that attractive to mission makers and so in turn they are being FORCED to use map's that are rather boring and all create the same missions. If we were to poll mission makers only and not the rest of the peanut gallery, It would be nice to see which maps people wanted. I for one don't think it's up to ANYONE but mission makers to choose maps to be added to the server. Everyone's been clawing at wanting the desert maps from Arma 1 because they provide more mission oppurtunities but everyone else here says no no no I don't want to waste more HDD space or SSD space... whatever. It's not that the mission maker's aren't that damn good, it's probably because they are being dealt cards they don't want to play.

New year's is coming so maybe it's time to step back take a look at what is going on and get a better idea of what we need to tackle. We need to look at what is lacking and what we can work on as a community. We all tear at each other way too much and it's really getting to the point that it is sickening to have been here 5 years and see this happening. It's time that we as a community make a resolution for the coming year to buck up and overhaul what we have. Lot's of us from ArmA1 had it good and we want that back and the new player's want what we had back then so instead of whine whine whine, lets do do do... okay?

I know by this post I am going to get quote rapped by 1Longtime but I took my pain pills in advance! Sorry 1Longtime but i had to poke at you since I always say something you hate :P

**Mikee** · 12-28-2009, 10:58 AM

After reading whole thread, I can say that missions where you have to think and have free choice are not really liked on TG.

Most of the missions we play are in such scenario:

Go here, destroy this, defend position...

When making Fallout mission, I wanted to create something different and see what can be achieved on Arma engine.

I'm seriously thinking about changing Fallout to mission like Dr. Tesla, where every side has clear objective to get done.

When played Fallout yesterday, I have seen civilians not cooperating with each other.

However, if I could have civilians start in groups, force them to cooperatve, add punishment system for teamkilling and give them clear tasks, gameplay would change for better.

**Hashassin** · 12-28-2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mikee

After reading whole thread, I can say that missions where you have to think and have free choice are not really liked on TG.

Most of the missions we play are in such scenario:

Go here, destroy this, defend position...

When making Fallout mission, I wanted to create something different and see what can be achieved on Arma engine.

I'm seriously thinking about changing Fallout to mission like Dr. Tesla, where every side has clear objective to get done.

When played Fallout yesterday, I have seen civilians not cooperating with each other.

However, if I could have civilians start in groups, force them to cooperatve, add punishment system for teamkilling and give them clear tasks, gameplay would change for better.

Since alot of people are saying they dont like it i have to say its great and TKing on the civ side is allowed since you are individuals like when i wouldnt help ghost and socom destroy my fuel truck and they shot me which i thought was fair since theyy were a group.

and another thing is that most civs will organise into groups and take places to use as a fortress like fort bannister only to get kicked out as we opened fire on a single raider not seeing the other men in the hills.

I still think this mission is great and brings a break from the usual missions the only thing i can think of to make it better is the area to be made a little bigger although this may not be possible due to the terrain of the map.

Great mission

Hash

**viper1986** · 12-28-2009, 11:24 AM

Mikee,

There are a few of us who are building missions that are not linear and don't tell the commander or players what they need to do. The idea of free thinking is hard to understand sometimes but i applaud you for trying to change it up a bit. There will be more missions coming our way that encourage free thinking and actual commanding then simple taking the commander seat and doing what the briefing tells you. Again, I am not telling anyone how missions should be built, it's all up to the mission maker but don't let these kinds of threads get in your way as they are customery these day's from the community. Keep up the hard work and originality because I too get tired of caveman missions where all i do is pick up my gun, go to point A, shoot enemy, and mission complete.

**Soupy_Norman** · 12-28-2009, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Sam Hoy

I've always had an issue with voting 1 or 2 for the next mission. Firstly, its not truly a majority, at this point the true majority is AFK and doesn't vote at all. Normally its the vocal minority that spams 1 or 2 that gets to decide. Secondly, most people don't know which mission they're really voting for. Either they don't remember what name belongs to what mission or its a new mission they know almost nothing about. Whats does it mean that 5 people voted for Operation Cow Catcher and 3 people voted for Operation Bell Bottoms, if most don't know what Operation Cow Catcher is and Operation Bell Bottoms is new and has never been played, and there are 35 people on the server anyways.

To me the solution is the develop a maplist that kicks in at around prime time. It would be comprised of new missions that need a good one seeing to and missions which are selected by admins/selected by the map team/voted on during the day with a forums vote.

I can see how people would get annoyed by maps like the new fallout one. Personally i think its amazing. Great fun, good role playing. Then again where is the Tactical eliment? Its there, just very oddly.
I had an absolute blast playing that mission last night for about 2.5 hours. Fortunatly as a civi all the people i met were mature and acted acordingly. At one point i was on my own in the desert and saw a truck heading towards me so i pulled out an AT4 (thanks bluefor) and stood my ground. He came to a stop infront of me and got out. It was an opfor or independant. I put my AT away and took out my m16 (thanks bluefor) instead. We had a good old chat then went our seperate ways. This kind of mature play is hard to come by.

Anyway in relation to your prime time map rotation: That would get old really fast AND what constitutes prime time? Theres alot of people from different time zones here now

**stozzcheese** · 12-28-2009, 11:37 AM

im going with rearden (played by peter sellers) on this one, i really did enjoy playing poppy and tesla a week or to ago when they were relatively new, but now whenever i play them (especially poppy) i get shot by civi's all the freaking time. take no malice, i love TG with all my heart but i really do think that the style of play has slightly degenerated a bit from where it was a few months ago. it pains me to say that ='(
we really do need some more organized ass whooping coops. im not saying the style of play is bad right now, i still enjoy myself but i would love to see TG at its best again =)

**Inq** · 12-28-2009, 11:47 AM

I would keep it like it is mikee. Its a great mission that just needs some more polish like Operation Poppy that ghost left to die.

Im really sick of the elitist attitude in this thread. Most of the people posting here don't even make missions for the server. I think you guys are being really snobbish for dis'ing other members missions just because you don't like the playstyle of the mission.

The cold hard fact is lots of people at TG (a majority) like missions with RP and new ideas. Just because the story line of the mission has been set without modern military forces fighting each other like a WW1 encounter does not meen you are not playing ARMA or a MILSIM.

You still get wounded, you still have team mates, you still have realistic weapons and recoil and the important one that people forget YOU STILL HAVE TACTICS!

I really enjoy missions where you get a brand new scenario and you have to develop new tactics. I also really enjoy TVT because I feel like im not fighting against mentally disabled people with blinkers on.

You guys need to lighten up and go with the flow. Sure no one minds playing a WW3 US vs Russia mission, Assault a town, Defend a town, Destroy This, Protect that Once in a while. The problem is these missions get stale very quickly. Perhaps people will disagree with me but nobody wants to play these missions over and over the way they do with a freedom mission like Fallout etc.

The main problem with ARMA TG is we lack map rotation. We lack rotation becasue we lack maps. If everyone posting in this thread made an interesting & quality map today everyone would be happy right?

**tHa_KhAn** · 12-28-2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gungnir

I have been wondering lately why the Alpha - coop, Bravo - Domi, Evo, TvT setup doesn't work anymore.

A good suggestion. I am always a fan of having that setup. However, the catch is most gamers are population whores. If 15 people are playing on the Persistent/sandbox and 3 on the coop, the average person will join the 15. Even if they hate the mission being played, they then whine and complain about the mission and leave feeling unsatisfied with their gaming experience. It's comical really, but it happens all the time. What we need to strive to avoid is the same type of mission being played on both servers. I think moving to identical server setups with the exception of mission type would be a good way to handle some of the issues.

Remember, any mission that allows and encourages teamwork is not against TG. Sure some missions allow for more goofing off than others, but that is a player issue and not a mission issue. Not everyone enjoys playing a specific type of mission and TG has always supported any style that is not Death match in design.

**Boondocksaint** · 12-28-2009, 12:32 PM

First I would like to say I like fall out and poppy, with the proper fixes. But the problem is, it requires a level a maturity some players can't handel. Example, Blufor kills a civilian by accident because he walks up to them just after a huge fire fight... soooo sorry we are on edge after being attacked by the whole server. That is another thing that makes those missions hard. At the end of fall out I had 2 civs and my 4 guys and we fought, and repelled 20+ guys. That can be fun but gets old. If we are going to play freeform missions maybe they should have limited respawns so people act more realistic or safe.

But what pisses me off is when we finished fallout we played a coop mission. A pretty big one at that. It was not an easy missions to plan. I was CO. It took an ungodly amount of time to get everyone to listen and get ready. Then when I set up the assault the squads still all got into one blob and died. This is unacceptable. The problem wasn't the SQL's, it was the guys under them. They couldn't switch off the rambo or cowboy mentality of fallout or poppy. We need to start locking down and cracking heads on people that don't listen. If your a civ in poppy just killing people randomly you should get kicked, if your in a coop and stealing trucks or running around then you should get kicked. I am going to stop my rant here because I know things are in the works to improve TG.

**Boondocksaint** · 12-28-2009, 12:33 PM

BTW I just typed all that without reading the above post on second page when I started it I didn't see it lol had to stop typing for like an hour lol

**Ghost02** · 12-28-2009, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Boondocksaint

But what pisses me off is when we finished fallout we played a coop mission. A pretty big one at that. It was not an easy missions to plan. I was CO. It took an ungodly amount of time to get everyone to listen and get ready. Then when I set up the assault the squads still all got into one blob and died. This is unacceptable. The problem wasn't the SQL's, it was the guys under them. They couldn't switch off the rambo or cowboy mentality of fallout or poppy.

EXACTLY!

We played 3+ hours of fallout [more like 4] and then when we try to play a mission that is TG, it goes to crap and then goes back to fallout.

I have an idea. Take crooks, tesla, fallout, and poppy off the server. Play more of falcons missions [the attack/defend] and go back to what TG is.

BTW I made Poppy, I want it gone, it is not what I thought it was going to be and it does not work. It was an experiment that failed and I accept that. No problem.

**viper1986** · 12-28-2009, 12:46 PM

Ghost,

Your idea of TG is misunderstood...

TG is not just these attack/defend type missions. TG is whatever the community provides and how we approach them. If you thinking attack/defend missions create order then your blind. The community depends on the player base and if they act like children then so be it. People need to learn to switch modes depending on the mission and if your going to force people to play certain style's of missions then you have many screws loose.

I don't care if the mission is herding cattle or driving the tractor, it's how the people approach it.

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