Thoughts about Saturday evening's games.

**Apophis** · 08-15-2005, 03:28 PM

I have some thoughts about the games on Saturday evening. Now that a couple days have passed and I'm not quite so annoyed, I figured I would share.

When I hopped on the server on Saturday, the USMC team had no commander. The game seemed to be well underway so I figured I might as well hop in to that position and get the ball properly rolling.

For the most part, all of the squads were great. They were following orders well, clearly called in when they needed supplies and provided me with the situational awareness that the SLs are privy to in order to help me make decisions. Some squads were dual tasked to re-take bases on our side of the river and then fall back to the west bank to prevent the MEC team from pushing their way across. They did very well.

Squad 5 held the bridge flag for quite a long time and performed quite well, even under the most difficult circumstances.

I did, however, have issues with a few squads. Some players felt as though 2 squads with only 1 person on them wasn't enough, so I ended up with 3-4 one person squads to manage. When I requested that they group together, I got some response and it dropped down to two one man squads rather than 4.

I also had issues with one squad (to be unnamed) that felt as though they should do whatever they felt like, completely ignoring the CO orders. While assigned to a defensive position on the southwest river bank, some of the members felt it more appropriate to cross the river and try taking flags on the other side, which left the southern bank exposed to attack. After requesting on comms for the SL to respond and getting nothing back, I removed one of the players in that squad from the game that was clearly off reservation and doing their own thing.

That player then re-joined the server, forming their own squad, and continued to ignore orders and do what they liked. They were removed again.

After doing this twice, the SL this player was originally on decided to exaggerate the situation and ask why players "left and right are being kicked for being unresponsive/teamplay". I explained that this player was simply off reservation and doing their own thing and was removed, and that I knew nothing of players being removed "left and right" and that only two kicks were made for this offenese.

The response to that was informing me that some players just have more situational awareness than the CO and were doing what was appropriate at that time. This is what really ticked me off.

In this case, I had my command screen zoomed in on the area and was well aware of what was going on. I had all conflict restricted to the river and the USMC team was holding the MEC team at bay and causing SEVERE ticket drain while the MEC team tried to push their way across the river.

I couldn't fathom what kind of situational awareness a player assigned to defense of the southern river bank would have on the far eastern side of the map at another flag. I maintain that the player was simply doing what they felt like doing and the SL was unable to keep control of his squad. I also REALLY dislike having to argue in-game with a SL that doesn't have a clue what's going on with his own team. I understand that players on the ground often have SA that the CO doesn't, but this only extends to how they are going to go about completing their objective, NOT what objective they are going to complete. Especially one on the other side of the map.

I ended up quitting out of BF2 and took care of some other things on my plate and came back in later on. There was another USMC CO in place by that point that was also clearly frustrated with some of the squads but didn't articulate where the problem was so there wasn't much I could do to remedy it.

Wednesday and Saturday night passworded games are supposed to be the nights where we are all on our best game. Where the teamwork and chain of command is preserved and communication flows freely to provide the best games we can possibly have. From a team and/or SL perspective, the games were probably great. But from a CO perspective, I can see why the USMC was lacking a proper CO. It's quite frustrating to take care of the teams that are following orders and making sure they have their flanks covered and the appropriate support while you're trying to manage the unruly players and/or SLs that can't control those in their charge.

I feel that the following issues need to be addressed not only on Wednesday and Saturday nights, but all nights in general:

1) Squad Leaders need to be responsive to the CO. They need to follow orders and/or provide some sort of notification if they need to veer off of their prescribed orders.

2) Squad Leaders need to be responsible for their squads. If a squad is becoming fractured and unable to stay together and/or if a squad leader is unable to control rogue players, the SL should remove those players from their squad.

3) Players should be following their SLs orders and not go off reservation unless explicitly instructed through the chain of command.

4) Squad Leaders should not take players and task them to entirely different objectives other than that which they are assigned. If a CO expects to have a full squad covering a defensive area and ends up with half a squad trying to do that job while the other half is off trying to cap flags on the other side of the map, there's a problem.

Any comments/concerns/ideas?

Mateo · 08-15-2005, 03:49 PM

Wasn't there on Saturday (not a night I can generally game on....) but I have noticed a lack of cohesion on passworded nights. Almost as bad as the non-passworded nights.

I think some house cleaning is in order.

If players cannot follow the CO/SL orders, then they need to be banned. The should not be here, since that type of gameplay is not the "TG Way". Don't know how you can do this with BF2, but it needs to be investigated.

AntiVisual · 08-15-2005, 03:50 PM

I am in full agreeance on pretty much all points. I had a horrible play time this entire weekend due to incapable CO's and probably squads that didn't listen. At one point yesterday I had to quit because I couldn't deal with it anymore. For some reason, this has been my experience on weekends. Gameplay during a work week is much better than not.

**DigitalAssassin** · 08-15-2005, 04:05 PM

I'll pipe in. A number of us 7th guys were playing on the MEC side when Apophis was CO. In general, I too noticed a lack of coordination, just in general. Other than the in-house squads there wasn't a lot of teamwork going on.

Trill · 08-15-2005, 04:09 PM

Only select few that get in a position of SL or CO, have little or no clue on what to do, if they are unsure they should NOT be in that position and should resign or leave as SL. Saying that, everyone needs practice in "command" so a we all must have patience when dealing with less experienced players.

It can be frustrating so see 2-3 1 man squads, but with the "join squad policy" it seems a easy loophole to do your own thing. It's bound to be a recuring issue for the games future. I see no way of inforcing this apart from current measures

The Majority of games/squads are well balanced with responsive players, we'll never get a perfect game in non-passworded servers.

Trill

John CANavar · 08-15-2005, 04:10 PM

everthing is clear now. I was asking myself "what is going on here?" during that game.

I was a squad member in that squad Apophis.

I can assure you that there was no bad intention and most of the problems were due to confusion. I guess our squad leader could not hear you because he was quite perplexed when he saw someone from our squad was kicked for "lack of teamplay". Everybody thought that was a bug in the game

I remember squad leader saying that "ok guys we have to defend west side of the river, that's our mission" at one time and he also marked the map. So he was obeying you.

But I also remember receiving orders to cross the river and capture some east side bases. I dont remember when? maybe after, maybe before that defense mission. I thought it was CO's orders as well. werent they ???

At some point we also supported (or tried to do so) an infantry unit crossing the river because we had some armors. but we returned to our post after that.

And there is one instance that I totally acted on my own. But I guess someone else would do the same thing. I was bringing an armor from the back base to our post in front and while I was passing the center of city, NW flag* turned white. considering our strong frontline on riverside, I guessed it can only be one or two infantries, passing unnoticed, so I drove to the flag and I was right. there was a single enemy soldier sitting in a stolen humwee, I got him and captured the flag with the help of some fast-response units.

I agree with your points. Bottom line is, it is CO's job to assign mission and SL's job to determine how to do the job. If SL has suggestions, he should contact the CO and get the permission.

*EDITED: not NE flag, NW flag

**Tempus** · 08-15-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

Wednesday and Saturday night passworded games are supposed to be the nights where we are all on our best game. Where the teamwork and chain of command is preserved and communication flows freely to provide the best games we can possibly have.

And this is why we are going to really start enforcing a zero tolerance policy on PW nights. Gameplay should be at its best, and players who are not helping that be the case will be removed.

Quote:

1) Squad Leaders need to be responsive to the CO. They need to follow orders and/or provide some sort of notification if they need to veer off of their prescribed orders.

See above. SLs reported to act like this will find themselves no longer in the SL role, or even on the server.

Quote:

2) Squad Leaders need to be responsible for their squads. If a squad is becoming fractured and unable to stay together and/or if a squad leader is unable to control rogue players, the SL should remove those players from their squad.

This is important. SLs will be held responsible for the actions of their squaddies. As Apo says, if your squaddies are giving you problems, remove them or report them. Admins often monitor the in-game text with our admin tool, so it may be worth it to say something there as well.

Quote:

3) Players should be following their SLs orders and not go off reservation unless explicitly instructed through the chain of command.

See the comments above. Same thing applies here.

Quote:

4) Squad Leaders should not take players and task them to entirely different objectives other than that which they are assigned. If a CO expects to have a full squad covering a defensive area and ends up with half a squad trying to do that job while the other half is off trying to cap flags on the other side of the map, there's a problem.

See point 2 above. Be responsible for your squad. Sometimes a CO will ask your squad to defend two flags, but other than that, you need to keep your squad on the same objective to enjoy the benefits of being in a squad.

Quote:

Any comments/concerns/ideas?

The entire post was well said and relevant. Everyone should take heed.

**Apophis** · 08-15-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John CANavar

everthing is clear now. I was asking myself "what is going on here?" during that game.

I was a squad member in that squad Apophis.

I can assure you that there was no bad intention and most of the problems were due to confusion. I guess our squad leader could not hear you because he was quite perplexed when he saw someone from our squad was kicked for "lack of teamplay". Everybody thought that was a bug in the game

I remember squad leader saying that "ok guys we have to defend west side of the river, that's our mission" at one time and he also marked the map. So he was obeying you.

If he had problems understanding the VoIP, it would have been great if he could have indicated that to me. I received no such notice that he was having difficulty understanding the VoIP. The in-game orders assigned should have been quite clear though.

Quote:

But I also remember receiving orders to cross the river and capture some east side bases. I dont remember when? maybe after, maybe before that defense mission. I thought it was CO's orders as well. werent they ???

At some point we also supported (or tried to do so) an infantry unit crossing the river because we had some armors. but we returned to our post after that.

At no such time did I assign that squad to cross the river and start taking bases. If you received orders to that effect, it was the result of your SL creating new orders and not holding the defensive column that was set up on the west side of the river.

Quote:

And there is one instance that I totally acted on my own. But I guess someone else would do the same thing. I was bringing an armor from the back base to our post in front and while I was passing the center of city, NE flag turned white. considering our strong frontline on riverside, I guessed it can only be one or two infantries, passing unnoticed, so I drove to the flag and I was right. there was a single enemy soldier sitting in a stolen humwee, I got him and captured the flag with the help of some fast-response units.

I did see that and had no issue with it at all. I feel that a SL needs to have flexibility in achieving their assigned objectives. If that includes having people spawn back at the main base and bring up artillery or other vehicles that's perfectly fine. If a flag is grey on the way through, picking it up before proceeding to your objective is also something that I don't particularly mind

What WAS frustrating was re-tasking the squad to go after objectives completey separate and well away from the CO assigned objectives for the squad.

Quote:

I agree with your points. Bottom line is, it is CO's job to assign mission and SL's job to determine how to do the job. If SL has suggestions, he should contact the CO and get the permission.

I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't see how the best way to hold defense of the west bank of the river includes crossing it and attempting to flag-hop on the far eastern side of Karkand.

**asch** · 08-15-2005, 04:28 PM

First let me point out that there is a difference between players who lack the experience and skill of the SL/CO role vs. those that do not follow orders. We need to help those players along who are making an attempt and report those that disregard orders. We do have some reports from players, but not nearly enough compared to the public forum posts.

When it comes to squad members being off the reservation, I blame that solely on the SL. The grunts do not know what the CO order is and can only attempt to follow the SL's orders. If the SL is not following orders it is up to the CO to report them to an admin.

We are also starting to see regular forming squads. Players are identifying preferred SLs or squad mates and joining those squads. I think these are the squads that are following orders and helping the team. This leaves the "new" players who aren't comfortable or capable in leadership roles. It also creates many squads that don't perform well together. This causes some players to start their own squad, making for quite a few 1/2 man squads. Now this is more for the regular play nights and not PW nights.

The admins need to bring the hammer down swifter and harder on PW nights and for those players using the TG tag. These players have read and say they understand the rules & SOPs. There is less tolerance for ignorance.

Our server enjoys some great pings and infrequent lag. The server uptime is great. Players see this and want in. They have no care for the rules & SOPs and we need to weed them out. (I have ideas for this I'll discuss with the admins.)

**Apophis** · 08-15-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalAssassin

I'll pipe in. A number of us 7th guys were playing on the MEC side when Apophis was CO. In general, I too noticed a lack of coordination, just in general. Other than the in-house squads there wasn't a lot of teamwork going on.

We had some great squads on Karkand, I will say that. Squads 1 and 5 did a spectacular job holding that bridge. I kept up as much as possible with the supply drops to keep them going. They held that point and only had two breaches. One was retaken quickly and the other was right toward the end of the map when they had at least 3-4 MEC squads pushing through them.

It just takes too much effort on the part of the CO to get the unruly squads in line and makes things harder on the squads and SLs that ARE performing their duties. On that last breach of the bridge flag, I saw it coming but had been using my artillery to hold off the southern beach due to certain squads being absent from their defensive points. I can't say as I could have stopped the breach with a single artillery volley, but it would have made things easier for squads 1 and 5 to hold.

John CANavar · 08-15-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

But I don't see how the best way to hold defense of the west bank of the river includes crossing it and attempting to flag-hop on the far eastern side of Karkand.

there is no excuse for doing that Apophis. It does not fit to my description of "doing the assigned task". I apologize in behalf of the whole squad. I will leave the explanation of that move to the squad leader...

**Apophis** · 08-15-2005, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John CANavar

there is no excuse for doing that Apophis. It does not fit to my description of "doing the assigned task". I apologize in behalf of the whole squad. I will leave the explanation of that move to our the squad leader...

No need to apologize. I understand that you were just a bystander in the whole affair and have no intention of disparaging your reputation as a result. I feel worse for the good players on these squads as they end up being the victims of their SLs or off-reservation squad members.

AntiVisual · 08-15-2005, 04:44 PM

So, who is bringing the punch and pie?

StrikeFear · 08-15-2005, 05:27 PM

I have two experiences related to this issue that I think are relevant examples.

Bad example:
1. On a few occasions, I've formed a jet squad, and after confirming with the CO that he wanted the jets organized that way, I told him that there was a player in squad 2 (or whatever) flying a jet. I asked the CO to ask the Squad 2 SL to tell that pilot to either join the Jets squad or leave the assets.
The issue was not handled. Where things broke down was unclear. Either the CO was ineffective (despite reminders), or the SL was disobedient, or the SL was unable to handle his squad member.
So I'm glad to hear of a new emphasis on organization.

Good example:
2. On one occasion, while leading a jet squad, we had more members than there were cockpit seats. Hence, players had to rotate through other roles while waiting their chance to fly. One of my squad members took it upon himself to man up an enemy jet from the UCB. Knowing this was against the rules, I gave him a direct order to abandon the jet. He complied - so I didn't have to have an admin kick my own squad member. But I would have, if necessary. I would have been embarrassed if my CO had needed to tell me to deal with the issue, actually.
Problems like this need to be dealt with at the SL level, immediately. The CO shouldn't have to worry about this, and as a responsible SL, you should make sure you're not allowing your squad mates to create an unfair situation for the opposing team - your fellow TGers.

Legato895 · 08-15-2005, 05:43 PM

when i joined up and saw almost right off the bat 2 people get kicked for lack of team work and comm yes i was confused. the players that were kicked i often attributed to some of the better and tactical gamers we have on our servers so when i asked you what was going on, i had no idea that we ever kicked players for those reasons, i simply hadn't seen it before. on top of that i wasn't questioning your orders in the least. im sorry i didn't recognize your name, but when i asked if maybe they had better awareness, i was just making sure you weren't a commander who was just kicking simply for staying back and defending a bit longer rather than moving on. when you explained this to me, i immediately retracted my questioning stance on your policy and apologized. i have no idea what pissed you off so much in what i said, but i will apologize AGAIN. i had no intention of being a thorn in your side, i was just completely taken by surprise that those certain people would be getting kicked for legitimate reasons. i have no idea what squad number i was, or any names, its just something im not great at, so sorry i can't give examples. i am just too used to commanders who may not have thought everything through

i agree about the stances that need to be taken. i might as well have been in a pubbie earlier today (read my rant post) and its only natural to see this overflow into pw games. i too was disappointed in the pw game (namely kuz i was getting killed over and over and over it seemed)

*edit* to add some constructive advice i feel that the regulars when joining should necessarily run to the fullest squad in hopes of being a part of the ONLY 6/6 squad in the game. i've been doing it more and more, but you need to support the small squads. if you break the ice and join a 1 player group than you can either talk to him and suggest he move to another squad, or perhaps more people will see the 2/6 as more attractive as a 1/6 and join up thus snowballing it... anyway, just trying to avoid the defensive nature of my post.

08-15-2005, 03:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
Apophis Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Rhode Island, USA Age: 36 Posts: 8,919	Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. I have some thoughts about the games on Saturday evening. Now that a couple days have passed and I'm not quite so annoyed, I figured I would share. When I hopped on the server on Saturday, the USMC team had no commander. The game seemed to be well underway so I figured I might as well hop in to that position and get the ball properly rolling. For the most part, all of the squads were great. They were following orders well, clearly called in when they needed supplies and provided me with the situational awareness that the SLs are privy to in order to help me make decisions. Some squads were dual tasked to re-take bases on our side of the river and then fall back to the west bank to prevent the MEC team from pushing their way across. They did very well. Squad 5 held the bridge flag for quite a long time and performed quite well, even under the most difficult circumstances. I did, however, have issues with a few squads. Some players felt as though 2 squads with only 1 person on them wasn't enough, so I ended up with 3-4 one person squads to manage. When I requested that they group together, I got some response and it dropped down to two one man squads rather than 4. I also had issues with one squad (to be unnamed) that felt as though they should do whatever they felt like, completely ignoring the CO orders. While assigned to a defensive position on the southwest river bank, some of the members felt it more appropriate to cross the river and try taking flags on the other side, which left the southern bank exposed to attack. After requesting on comms for the SL to respond and getting nothing back, I removed one of the players in that squad from the game that was clearly off reservation and doing their own thing. That player then re-joined the server, forming their own squad, and continued to ignore orders and do what they liked. They were removed again. After doing this twice, the SL this player was originally on decided to exaggerate the situation and ask why players "left and right are being kicked for being unresponsive/teamplay". I explained that this player was simply off reservation and doing their own thing and was removed, and that I knew nothing of players being removed "left and right" and that only two kicks were made for this offenese. The response to that was informing me that some players just have more situational awareness than the CO and were doing what was appropriate at that time. This is what really ticked me off. In this case, I had my command screen zoomed in on the area and was well aware of what was going on. I had all conflict restricted to the river and the USMC team was holding the MEC team at bay and causing SEVERE ticket drain while the MEC team tried to push their way across the river. I couldn't fathom what kind of situational awareness a player assigned to defense of the southern river bank would have on the far eastern side of the map at another flag. I maintain that the player was simply doing what they felt like doing and the SL was unable to keep control of his squad. I also REALLY dislike having to argue in-game with a SL that doesn't have a clue what's going on with his own team. I understand that players on the ground often have SA that the CO doesn't, but this only extends to how they are going to go about completing their objective, NOT what objective they are going to complete. Especially one on the other side of the map. I ended up quitting out of BF2 and took care of some other things on my plate and came back in later on. There was another USMC CO in place by that point that was also clearly frustrated with some of the squads but didn't articulate where the problem was so there wasn't much I could do to remedy it. Wednesday and Saturday night passworded games are supposed to be the nights where we are all on our best game. Where the teamwork and chain of command is preserved and communication flows freely to provide the best games we can possibly have. From a team and/or SL perspective, the games were probably great. But from a CO perspective, I can see why the USMC was lacking a proper CO. It's quite frustrating to take care of the teams that are following orders and making sure they have their flanks covered and the appropriate support while you're trying to manage the unruly players and/or SLs that can't control those in their charge. I feel that the following issues need to be addressed not only on Wednesday and Saturday nights, but all nights in general: 1) Squad Leaders need to be responsive to the CO. They need to follow orders and/or provide some sort of notification if they need to veer off of their prescribed orders. 2) Squad Leaders need to be responsible for their squads. If a squad is becoming fractured and unable to stay together and/or if a squad leader is unable to control rogue players, the SL should remove those players from their squad. 3) Players should be following their SLs orders and not go off reservation unless explicitly instructed through the chain of command. 4) Squad Leaders should not take players and task them to entirely different objectives other than that which they are assigned. If a CO expects to have a full squad covering a defensive area and ends up with half a squad trying to do that job while the other half is off trying to cap flags on the other side of the map, there's a problem. Any comments/concerns/ideas? __________________ Diplomacy is the art of saying "good doggie" while looking for a bigger stick.

08-15-2005, 03:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mateo Join Date: Aug 2004 Age: 37 Posts: 6,483	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. Wasn't there on Saturday (not a night I can generally game on....) but I have noticed a lack of cohesion on passworded nights. Almost as bad as the non-passworded nights. I think some house cleaning is in order. If players cannot follow the CO/SL orders, then they need to be banned. The should not be here, since that type of gameplay is not the "TG Way". Don't know how you can do this with BF2, but it needs to be investigated.

08-15-2005, 03:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
AntiVisual Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 494	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. I am in full agreeance on pretty much all points. I had a horrible play time this entire weekend due to incapable CO's and probably squads that didn't listen. At one point yesterday I had to quit because I couldn't deal with it anymore. For some reason, this has been my experience on weekends. Gameplay during a work week is much better than not. __________________ [age-c1][gchq-c1][support] TG-1st MIP(Currently Retired)

08-15-2005, 04:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
DigitalAssassin Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Kansas City Age: 35 Posts: 1,586	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. I'll pipe in. A number of us 7th guys were playing on the MEC side when Apophis was CO. In general, I too noticed a lack of coordination, just in general. Other than the in-house squads there wasn't a lot of teamwork going on. __________________

08-15-2005, 04:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
Trill Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Reading, UK Age: 22 Posts: 42	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. Only select few that get in a position of SL or CO, have little or no clue on what to do, if they are unsure they should NOT be in that position and should resign or leave as SL. Saying that, everyone needs practice in "command" so a we all must have patience when dealing with less experienced players. It can be frustrating so see 2-3 1 man squads, but with the "join squad policy" it seems a easy loophole to do your own thing. It's bound to be a recuring issue for the games future. I see no way of inforcing this apart from current measures The Majority of games/squads are well balanced with responsive players, we'll never get a perfect game in non-passworded servers. Trill __________________ "If in doubt, nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

08-15-2005, 04:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
John CANavar Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 32 Posts: 3,405	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. everthing is clear now. I was asking myself "what is going on here?" during that game. I was a squad member in that squad Apophis. I can assure you that there was no bad intention and most of the problems were due to confusion. I guess our squad leader could not hear you because he was quite perplexed when he saw someone from our squad was kicked for "lack of teamplay". Everybody thought that was a bug in the game I remember squad leader saying that "ok guys we have to defend west side of the river, that's our mission" at one time and he also marked the map. So he was obeying you. But I also remember receiving orders to cross the river and capture some east side bases. I dont remember when? maybe after, maybe before that defense mission. I thought it was CO's orders as well. werent they ??? At some point we also supported (or tried to do so) an infantry unit crossing the river because we had some armors. but we returned to our post after that. And there is one instance that I totally acted on my own. But I guess someone else would do the same thing. I was bringing an armor from the back base to our post in front and while I was passing the center of city, NW flag* turned white. considering our strong frontline on riverside, I guessed it can only be one or two infantries, passing unnoticed, so I drove to the flag and I was right. there was a single enemy soldier sitting in a stolen humwee, I got him and captured the flag with the help of some fast-response units. I agree with your points. Bottom line is, it is CO's job to assign mission and SL's job to determine how to do the job. If SL has suggestions, he should contact the CO and get the permission. *EDITED: not NE flag, NW flag

08-15-2005, 04:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
asch Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Mill, SC Age: 33 Posts: 9,831	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. First let me point out that there is a difference between players who lack the experience and skill of the SL/CO role vs. those that do not follow orders. We need to help those players along who are making an attempt and report those that disregard orders. We do have some reports from players, but not nearly enough compared to the public forum posts. When it comes to squad members being off the reservation, I blame that solely on the SL. The grunts do not know what the CO order is and can only attempt to follow the SL's orders. If the SL is not following orders it is up to the CO to report them to an admin. We are also starting to see regular forming squads. Players are identifying preferred SLs or squad mates and joining those squads. I think these are the squads that are following orders and helping the team. This leaves the "new" players who aren't comfortable or capable in leadership roles. It also creates many squads that don't perform well together. This causes some players to start their own squad, making for quite a few 1/2 man squads. Now this is more for the regular play nights and not PW nights. The admins need to bring the hammer down swifter and harder on PW nights and for those players using the TG tag. These players have read and say they understand the rules & SOPs. There is less tolerance for ignorance. Our server enjoys some great pings and infrequent lag. The server uptime is great. Players see this and want in. They have no care for the rules & SOPs and we need to weed them out. (I have ideas for this I'll discuss with the admins.) __________________ \| My Maps Gaming Videos by Tactical Gamers Fear the Frog! \| Kill the Frog! \| An Inconvenient Truth "Support game play in a near-simulation environment. Where the focus of play would not be solely on doing what it takes to win, but doing so utilizing real-world combat strategy and tactics rather than leveraging exploits provided to players by the design of the game engine, regardless of the level of advantage, if any, it gives over the opposing team." -- Tactical Gamer Primer

08-15-2005, 04:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
AntiVisual Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 494	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. So, who is bringing the punch and pie? __________________ [age-c1][gchq-c1][support] TG-1st MIP(Currently Retired)

08-15-2005, 05:27 PM	#14 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 38 Posts: 1,877	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. I have two experiences related to this issue that I think are relevant examples. Bad example: 1. On a few occasions, I've formed a jet squad, and after confirming with the CO that he wanted the jets organized that way, I told him that there was a player in squad 2 (or whatever) flying a jet. I asked the CO to ask the Squad 2 SL to tell that pilot to either join the Jets squad or leave the assets. The issue was not handled. Where things broke down was unclear. Either the CO was ineffective (despite reminders), or the SL was disobedient, or the SL was unable to handle his squad member. So I'm glad to hear of a new emphasis on organization. Good example: 2. On one occasion, while leading a jet squad, we had more members than there were cockpit seats. Hence, players had to rotate through other roles while waiting their chance to fly. One of my squad members took it upon himself to man up an enemy jet from the UCB. Knowing this was against the rules, I gave him a direct order to abandon the jet. He complied - so I didn't have to have an admin kick my own squad member. But I would have, if necessary. I would have been embarrassed if my CO had needed to tell me to deal with the issue, actually. Problems like this need to be dealt with at the SL level, immediately. The CO shouldn't have to worry about this, and as a responsible SL, you should make sure you're not allowing your squad mates to create an unfair situation for the opposing team - your fellow TGers. __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

08-15-2005, 05:43 PM	#15 (permalink)
Legato895 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Lincoln NE Age: 21 Posts: 255	Re: Thoughts about Saturday evening's games. when i joined up and saw almost right off the bat 2 people get kicked for lack of team work and comm yes i was confused. the players that were kicked i often attributed to some of the better and tactical gamers we have on our servers so when i asked you what was going on, i had no idea that we ever kicked players for those reasons, i simply hadn't seen it before. on top of that i wasn't questioning your orders in the least. im sorry i didn't recognize your name, but when i asked if maybe they had better awareness, i was just making sure you weren't a commander who was just kicking simply for staying back and defending a bit longer rather than moving on. when you explained this to me, i immediately retracted my questioning stance on your policy and apologized. i have no idea what pissed you off so much in what i said, but i will apologize AGAIN. i had no intention of being a thorn in your side, i was just completely taken by surprise that those certain people would be getting kicked for legitimate reasons. i have no idea what squad number i was, or any names, its just something im not great at, so sorry i can't give examples. i am just too used to commanders who may not have thought everything through i agree about the stances that need to be taken. i might as well have been in a pubbie earlier today (read my rant post) and its only natural to see this overflow into pw games. i too was disappointed in the pw game (namely kuz i was getting killed over and over and over it seemed) edit to add some constructive advice i feel that the regulars when joining should necessarily run to the fullest squad in hopes of being a part of the ONLY 6/6 squad in the game. i've been doing it more and more, but you need to support the small squads. if you break the ice and join a 1 player group than you can either talk to him and suggest he move to another squad, or perhaps more people will see the 2/6 as more attractive as a 1/6 and join up thus snowballing it... anyway, just trying to avoid the defensive nature of my post. __________________ \|TG-Irr\|Legato

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