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03-18-2007, 09:08 PM #1
18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
AAR here please.
I'll be back later. Chow time.(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander
Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html
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03-18-2007, 09:55 PM #2
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
it's all roots fault! he didn't give us the A10!

on a serious note - aar coming tomorrow morning, can't keep my eyes open any more.TG-E1st TacticalGamer European Division | Watch this (pretty old) video to find out what TG is all about






A Tactical Gamer since 2005
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03-18-2007, 10:21 PM #3
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Write your own AAR
I just finished CO'ing on Basrah, and it was pretty epic. We (US) got creamed, but not without taking some MEC dirtbags with us. I didn't catch the names of all my SL's, but I sure hope they'll chime in and get recognised. They were fantastic, and did everything I asked of them. Sloppy managed the helos for me, and then switched his squad to ground pounding around the 150 ticket mark.
Dawolf was my main man on the ground, taking and retaking the facility for me. Everyone else piled in to help. We had an APC squad, that was providing a mobile spawn point, and a couple of infantry squads getting dead with regularity.
I grounded the A10's from start to finish. Only one team member asked why, and in case he missed it....
A10's do a fantastic job of wiping out infantry and vehicles on Basrah, but I find that that's pointless without well drilled squads on the ground. When an airstrike hits, you HAVE to have a couple of squads ready to RUN to wherever the strike was, and finish off any OpFor. This is particularly true of flag areas.
What A10's don't do, ever, is cap flags. The US loses through flags not being capped, so I took the decision to rely on cobras and black hawks for air power. They fly lower and slower than an A10, so can be more precise with their targetting. Sure, we did lose some troops to 20mm tonight, but I'm confident the body count is normally higher with the A10's in the mix. I personally believe that the A10's are a red herring on this map, and my CO strategy will always be to leave them at the airbase, at least in the near future.
One thing I found a bit frustrating, was that squads weren't keeping rally points near the city. Most were definitely trying, and you certainly can't account for the OpFor being inconsiderate and blowing up your beautiful collection of bags. Rally points are a must. With a CO on deck, you don't need anyone at the main base, with the exception of helo crews. The other exceptions would be if the CO needs all the APC's brought down to act as RP's, or because a particular squad has taken a real mauling and needs a chance to regroup and try a fresh attack. The other big frustration, was one-man tank squads. Tanks have 3 crew positions for a reason, and it's not so that one guy can keep switching between them.
I think Basrah is a lot like Muttrah, in that good SL's and a good CO aren't enough. The need to be brilliant. You also need squad members that can shoot, and who don't need to be told to follow orders. I won't speak for the standard of CO'ing tonight, but I'd sure love to have most of my SL's serve under me again. We had a lot of the right stuff tonight, and what we really lacked more than anything, was a lucky break. I've already identified a lot of different approaches we could have taken, and I'll be looking to CO the US a lot more on this map in order to try some alternatives.
A 6-man helo squad is a real help. Having both cobras operational AND both black hawks available for recon / transport / gunship roles could be a lot better than having a 4-man squad like tonight. That's no slur, Sloppy didn't have 6 guys, so he had to keep reconfiguring the air support, and did a top job of it. I'd like to get a single airborne sniper in a very slow moving chopper, probably on the west side, next time. DB and I established today that this is something the 160th can provide. A black hawk is a rather stable gunnery platform for a sniper, but you do need a top class marksman to have any worthwhile effect.
On the ground, employing all of the available APC's is the way to go. Get them arrayed around the city, and just use them as spawn points. Combine that with rally points and all targets being painted, and SL's will have a huge variety of places to spawn in, while minimising the immediate danger to their squad. Getting squads placed for the domino effect is tricky, but I'm confident that we'll get this nailed. I hope SL's will increasingly have the patience to sit around doing nothing for extended periods of time. This can be a sign that you're in the right place, ready to cap the next flag at a seconds notice. Something I'm always begging for squads to do, and tonight I saw delivered in style, was dropping whatever you're doing, and running to the waypoint. So often I see flags lost because players were just clearing one more bad guy. There's times when running away is the smartest thing to do, and tonight when I really needed it, my SL's delivered.
The MEC did a great job of beating us tonight. Next time they might not be so lucky. It was a great game all round, and again, my thanks to the US team. Brilliant job guys.
BFCL TF2 league admin

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03-18-2007, 11:15 PM #4
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Yes, Root did a great job. A tick too much on the mic, but we were getting excellent feedback on what was going on on the ground. Excellent satilete work with spotting those vehicles.
Felt like the gameplay was up a good 33% from it nonpasswored nights. Yeah, I am that good with percentages.
We had the first ingredient, the CO
The next was ground support, the APC squad
After that, the transports, Enter Sloppy Joe.
I started that with squad 8. 12th Fallen joined and we had a gay ol time in the APC. Yeah, that's right, gay.
As before, infantry jarheads do not feel comfortable spawning on the A.P.C. or taking point.
The A.P.C. cannot take many rounds before going down. The APC is the assault rally point. It is the single most important ride for the Corp.
It provides a spawn point inside the flag orb/ special kits/ suppressive fire; it just needs guys spawning and taking point.
One time we were south of Facilty inside the flag orb seating there for three mins, and no one wanted to spawn in. Damn you Rally Points, J.K.
Are technique was:
Me=Crewman=Driver
Fallen=Crewman=Gunner
Dude(not sure of full name) = Engineer
Everyone else engineer or medic.
___
When Root wanted two APCs going, I started APC 2. I am not a fan of two heavy vehicles in one squad. Throughs off the whole " 12, 12, 12, o'clock, get um" deal, when someone else is saying 3 o'clock in another APC.
I know it can work, but the communication would have needed to be spot on. Sorry champs, I can't do it.
Well, when I started the 2 one, minues later, everyone ditched the orginal APC squad and joined APC2. NOOOO!.
This made me as squad three leader.
After we got it, I hear Root say if three does not start answering, he is going to get kicked.
Second later, he typed that a kick would be a one week ban. Noooo! After reading plenty of Counter Strike threads of people being kicked and banned, I retired, knowing I was on thin ice.
___
Due to the fact the teams were fairly balanced, the mod design really hurts the Corp. Keep in mind on the Previous map the tangos did real well at the providence one.
I think it is odd that the Mariend Corp gets in a bunch of boats. Travels thousands of miles. Docks in the Pursiona Gulf. Invades a country. Sets up camp in an Airport at Al Bas. Then when they want to assault a city and round up some tangos they are limited in their assault.
The map (an awsome map BTW) should be designed so that the Corp is the Assault unit and the tangos are holding their ground. clearly the tangos would not counter-assault in such a manner. They would use their strengths. Hiding and letting them come to them.
The map is excellent for a microcosim of the RL conditions in the Middle east. However, the AASv2 set-up allows the tangos to assault and defend. They should not need to worry about counter-assaulting. In RL they would be destroyed. Maybe I am biased being a Yank and all.
I believe it is odd that the Corp is limited in their assault and policing of the city.
_____
Would like to see more password nights. At least seven nights a week.Last edited by Rick_the_new_guy; 03-18-2007 at 11:44 PM.
(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander
Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html
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03-18-2007, 11:25 PM #5
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Sorry Rick. I live on the commander screen, as I see little or no reason to have anything else up when CO'ing. I thought 3 had been in place for a while, and was mute.
It definitely takes great SA to have multiple vehicles in a single squad (try 5 helos on Muttrah!!), but I was hoping we could get them moved down as spawn points, rather than offensive vehicles. That's my bad for not explaining better at the time.
It was the SL who informed me that MEC was launching a counterstrike at facility that had me scared. I was ready to ban their entire team for brining AWP'ers to my flag.After reading plenty of Counter Strike threads of people being kicked and banned, I retired, knowing I was on thin ice.
BFCL TF2 league admin

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03-18-2007, 11:52 PM #6
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Due to the fact the teams were fairly balanced, the mod design really hurts the Corp. Keep in mind on the Previous map the tangos did real well at the providence one.
I think it is odd that the Mariend Corp gets in a bunch of boats. Travels thousands of miles. Docks in the Pursiona Gulf. Invades a country. Sets up camp in an Airport at Al Bas. Then when they want to assault a city and round up some tangos they are limited in their assault.
The map (an awsome map BTW) should be designed so that the Corp is the Assault unit and the tangos are holding their ground. clearly the tangos would not counter-assault in such a manner (Creating Whack-a-mole gameplay). They would use their strengths. Hiding and letting the Corp come to them. They should NOT need to worry about bleed. Time is always on their side. And only if the Corp controls all the flags, should they bleed. For the tangos it should be about:
1. Defense (100%)
2. Nickel and dimeing the Corp.
3. No rush to do anything huge. Time is on their side. So stay alieve.
I have lobbied to the Devs about creating clear Assault and Defense maps in the future.
Currently Al-Bas is an Assault and Defense/Couter Assault map.
The map is excellent for a microcosim of the RL conditions in the Middle east. However, the AASv2 set-up allows the tangos to assault and defend. They should not need to worry about counter-assaulting. In RL they would be destroyed. Maybe I am biased being a Yank and all.
I believe it is odd that the Corp is limited in their assault and policing of the city.
_____
Would like to see more password nights. At least seven nights a week.Last edited by Rick_the_new_guy; 03-19-2007 at 01:03 AM.
(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander
Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html
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03-19-2007, 07:33 AM #7
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
SL Squad 1 "ITS ON!" US.
This is the story of SQ1 from my perspective. I only stayed for Basrah and that was an intense round. Starting Squad 1 at the beginning I took an APC to village and met up with my 2 squadmates who were coming in from the base in a HMMV. We capped village quickly and without any resistance, then proceeded to move south below Facility as ordered by the CO.
The squad filled up on the way. Near facility things became more hectic for the first time. We destroyed a spawn car and spotted a tank waiting outside the facility.
The tank was taken care of rather fast by air support. We moved east to meet up with SQ2 when we got pinned down by sniper fire.
We lost one man spotting the sniper on a rooftop. While the squad secured our position i called for a chopper to take care of that sniper. With the sniper out of the way the medic rushed in to revive the casualty and we moved on.
That was only the first few minutes of quality gaming.
We soon found out that not only the US had some good teamwork going
Facility was a killing ground. Without grappling hooks only so many entry points remain. Trying to push through them often resulted in heavy losses. We turned the flag a few times, mostly by sneaking around and not getting detected.
Everytime as soon as the flag turned all hell broke loose. RPGs hitting from the rooftops, deadly sniper fire and millions of insurgents pouring in the facility complex from all directions using their hooks...
It really gets to you when you try to cover one entry point, shoot a bad guy and suddenly your squadmates covering every corner of the facility start reporting incoming - all at once!
Frantic fighting continued all around the city. We made it to mosque once while still holding facility and got it neutral. But we were pinned down by rooftop shooters and insurgents advancing on us. We held on as long as we could...
All in all a great round, but it took forever to end. The latter part was more chaotic as the server filled up with 62 players. SL-CO communication worked great. Thanks to Root for commanding!
Air support was spot on (only one time directly "on my spot") and it worked having the cobras strafe the facility rooftops and us moving in right behind them wiping out enemies hiding inside buildings, then capping the flag.
As i noted on ingame chat its much harder taking ground against an organized insurgency than fighting every-day pubbies.
Next time i hope i can bring back some pictures of the action but this time i was too busy shooting enemies (or getting shot by them).
Thanks to all who played in my squad. It's been a pleasure.TG-E1st TacticalGamer European Division | Watch this (pretty old) video to find out what TG is all about






A Tactical Gamer since 2005
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03-19-2007, 11:41 AM #8
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
An interesting comment, given your desire for a more RL map here. While you speak here of the Marine Corp, it is noteworthy that the combined forces of the US military are indeed very limited in their assaulting and policing of cities in Iraq. There is no way to create a RL map or game that simply uses various force ratios of a military nature. You need to account for the politics of both the invader and the occupied countries.
But I risk hijacking this thread...
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03-19-2007, 12:04 PM #9
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
What I was addresseing was the linar aspect of the CP set-up.
Tangos do not need to worry about rear bases and supply lines like a mechanized military machine, yet the CP set-up makes it play out like that.
Just like in real life, the Corp should be able to move a lot of guys where they want and assault. In real life, the tanks the tangos jacked are done for, period.
What is odd, is that the element of suprise is gone by the Corp due to the predictable order of the CP set-up.
The tangos know their every move.
___
As noted up top the too teams should be the inverse of each other.
Tango:
1. Defend 100% (the option to counter-assault should never be there)
2. Nickel and Dime
3. Milk the clock.
4. Stay low and let the Corp come to them.
5. Have their Civilian operatives keep the enemy honest on their assaults. (opps that is coming up in .6).
Corp
1. Assault 100% (the option to defend should never be there)
2. Expend about a thousand dollars/ tango kill
3. Should feel rushed and clock is against them.
4. Come out in the open to assault and secure the positions.
5. Be selective with their targets on the ground, civilian casualites will hurt the assessts (tickets) of the Corp. (Opps again, that is .6 also.)
__
The simpilist way to fix is to:
1. The Corp can only effect a flag orb if 7-9 warriros are on the flag orb. (currently it is two I believe)
2. Once the Corp secures the orb, they need not defend it (stays on their team) 100% zero whack-a-mole)
3. Allow every CP to be captured at any time, by the Corp mind you.
4. Bleed the Corp until the enemy has only one or two flags.
Con: a lot of teamwork is needed to for both teams to show their strenghts well and hide their weakness.
4.Last edited by Rick_the_new_guy; 03-19-2007 at 12:43 PM.
(PO3) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Member
(CPO) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Squad Leader
(LCDR) Marcinko_R. (BF2 PR .509) Commander
Squad Member pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...ad-leader.html
Squad Leader pledge to their team:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...r-platoon.html
Commander pledge to their SL:http://www.tacticalgamer.com/battlef...d-leaders.html
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03-19-2007, 04:16 PM #10
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Squad 2:
At least until my CPU froze up, sorry ROOT. I only took over after the main SL had to leave.
I agree with Root, spawn points were not staying active. For whatever reason they were taken out way too quickly and they not put back into place. Root did an excellent job of moving everyone and spotting those darn enemies. Our squad was tasked with linking with squad three and attacking the mosque. Way to enemies on the roof and when ever the air support took them out they were back again. Squad two kept on trucking even though we had several wipes.
It seemed that through out the entire mission the enemy knew where and when we would attack. Maybe it is time for a different plan of attack. Root this is not against you because you did an awesome job, just maybe we need a new trick up our sleeves.
B
"First to fight""Don't tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results." Gen. George Patton
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03-19-2007, 04:33 PM #11
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
The APC squad was a lot of fun yeah, the problem when the squad was broken into two was that squad 3 suddenly had both APCs, and we in squad 8 had none. So I jumped into three to see if you were planning to keep both those APC or if we could take one, when suddenly I became SL.
I had talkative SMs, (which I encourage), and a talkative CO, and then my two year old came to jump up and down next to me. Trying to do anything useful with 2 SMs and the CO talking over each other while a two year old is yelling "FixSpongebobDaddyFixSpongebobDaddyFixSpongebobDad dyFixSpongebobDaddy, DaddyFixSpongebobDaddyFixSpongebobDaddyFixSpongebo bDaddyFixSpongebobDaddy"
in your ear after he changed the channel on the TV just didn't work. I couldn't hear what anyone was saying, so I took a break instead.
Root, thanks for COing, but please talk to a single squad at a time next time
When infantry has an APC for support, they need to lead the way. It's absolutely suicide for armor to go first through narrow passages where RPGs wait behind every corner. Infantry should let the APCs splash damage be the offensive weapon while they try to defend the APC from counter-attacks.|TG-12th| fallen

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03-19-2007, 04:50 PM #12
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03-19-2007, 05:51 PM #13
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
I played insurgent for the first time last night on Basra and we always battled for the facility. We had our teams troops spread out most of the time but if facility fell we stormed it. I was surprised to find the facility undefended more than once after the US had bleed a lot of tickets to take it.
I think US needed a concentrated defence around facility. Not sure how but US superior weapons should help. I do think it would be good if one more flag is open for capture for the US as it would change the dynamics.
Or maybe change it so flags cant be retaken by the insurgents. I was also surprised how many spawn cars we had to spawn on.
I still like the map it has a lot of city fighting, and when playing marines and you take more than facility you feel good.
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03-19-2007, 06:01 PM #14
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Here's my thoughts on Al basrah after *gasp* playing the resistance side one time.
What makes this map special is the way it's laid out. Instead of getting kits and rally points, various special weapons are placed on the ground, spawn cars are in abundance, ammo dumps, and 4-5 AA guns are in many locations (generally their backlines). Ever wonder why the AA placements are near the rear? Well I visitted the PR wiki to check for more info on where the pickup weapons were and I noticed that the map was designed with the following advice:
USMC needs to destroy the insurgent's assets (especially spawn cars).
That tells me why the AA placements are near the rear. Insurgents get a limitted amount of spawn cars to spawn at and only a few fixed spawn points on the map. As long as insurgents use these cars it will make things very difficult for USMCs to grab flags. The map was designed for a basic 2 step approach for USMC to win. 1) Destroy the insurgents infrastructure 2) take flags.
The best way to take out their infrastructure is to hit their assets and supply line, be it A10s, spec ops infantry, or probably best, the cobras. This is probably why the AA placements are where they are. AFAIK the blue spawn cars do not respawn as per design. Getting in their rear (and even palace) to find these suckers is part of the scenario (I know, gentleman's agreement, but given the nature of this map, may be inappropriate).
USMC needs to focus on weakening the insurgents, taking out their spawns so that they can only spawn in hard spawns that are not very conveniently close to flags. Once this is done, the USMC forces can ride in and sweep up flags with ease instead of banging their heads against insurgents that spawn near flags and ressupply troops quickly..









"The success of what we do depends upon people valuing the team over themselves."
- Wulfyn
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03-19-2007, 06:23 PM #15
Re: 18-3-2007 First PR .509 password night
Good thoughts Sloppy. What i didnt know is that you can destroy the ammo dumps until me and most of my squad blew up on top of the mosque ammo dump when a grenade hit us.
Not sure how heavily the insurgents relied on ammo dumps to resupply but destroying them should hamper their ability to continuously shoot RPGs at the US.
We destroyed at least 4-5 spawn cars last night but they kept coming back with new ones.TG-E1st TacticalGamer European Division | Watch this (pretty old) video to find out what TG is all about






A Tactical Gamer since 2005
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