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Discussion: Battlefield 2 / Battlefield 2 - After Action Reports - HUGE Teamwork Issues - i've played for a little while now and i must say i generally enjoy the
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    stickyjeans69's Avatar

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    Unhappy HUGE Teamwork Issues

    i've played for a little while now and i must say i generally enjoy the TG server HOWEVER, the past 4-5 nights i have played as U.S. and i must say that the teams are not being fairly distributed. each night the U.S. team has had its @ss kicked by the other team, and theres a good explanation why, a GREAT lack of Teamwork, next to none. first off we have like 500 different 1 man squads, useless. second 70% of the time there is no commander, useless. third, this is really frusterating me.

    tonight i was playing on Basrah and setup an Airforce Squad, i get to my cobra start her up and one of my members goes to the next chopper, well somebody decides to make a new squad, AIR. 4 people in my squad, plenty of room for the two in AIR. so air gets going with the other cobra and TG Root was on commander, he tried to contact them countless times before they answered, finally they realize they need to join up into the already formed squad, so they do. TG root's stratedgy includes no A10's another squad forms up and starts flying those, they never respond to the commander and end up being Kicked/banned. and not only that but there are still those 500 1 man squads. my buttons are getting pushed

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    Root's Avatar

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by stickyjeans69 View Post
    TG Root
    Supporting Members are allowed to call me Root. No need for the formality of the TG bit.

    I actually thought it went pretty well tonight. Sure we got beat senseless, but the team did a pretty good job of following orders. From where I was sitting, it seemed that we were getting out-shot, and having facility in it's own control group really doesn't help. IMO, mosque should also be in that group. We did have a couple of iffy SL's, but that was sorted out. My biggest worry was that the insurgents seemed to take your cobras down a lot. We got luckier a few nights ago.

    Just to be clear, I have a different strategy for Basrah that *does* involve the A10s, I just chose not to use it tonight. I find it a bit off-putting, when the US gets it's daily dose of Bashra-beating, and yet the A10 squad has a zillion points. That suggests to me that either the A10s aren't being tasked effectively by the CO / SL, or that the pilots are just flying around looking for kills. In either case, the pilots are better off standing in the flag radius.

    I wish we could have brought the black hawks into the fight in a better manner tonight, but we seemed to be lacking in pilots. That's just one of those things. Tomorrow night we'll have more than we need.

    Congrats to the insurgent team. They didn't give us any room to manouver. A lesser team wouldn't have taken south VCP. We had some very competent SL's, and we did a fine job. Who's up for another round tomorrw?
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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    One of the best solutions is to start regularly SL'ing, educate players in your squad, and build a reputation as a good team player and adequate leader. We cannot really influence anyone outside of our own squad, and one squad cannot win the battle on their own, so forget about the mob, forget about winning the war, and focus on being the best leader you can be and playing for the Art of War.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    One of the best solutions is to start regularly SL'ing, educate players in your squad, and build a reputation as a good team player and adequate leader. We cannot really influence anyone outside of our own squad, and one squad cannot win the battle on their own, so forget about the mob, forget about winning the war, and focus on being the best leader you can be and playing for the Art of War.
    Very good advice here. I find myself leading my own squad quite a bit when I can't find a well tuned squad..

    Speaking of frustration...today I'm leading a squad on Helmand Province. We spawn at main as British. Goal was to move stealthfully up to X ray...continue North and come in at the enemy from a direction he wasn't expecting.

    Me: Ok guys we are moving out on foot...form up on me...

    Squad: roger--but they proceed to get in TWO Land rovers...move up to the marker and consequently bring the enemy to bear on our formerly un spotted position...Frustrated the heck out of me as this was the 2nd or 3rd time orders went down the tube with this squad....simple order, wasn't it? On a previous map my standing orders were..."guys we are playing as infantry and moving on foot"...fighting escalated and suddenly one of my guys spawns at main to bring up apc...at precisely the moment we needed bodies close to the flag to defend. We lost the flag and had to burn many tickets recapturing...I let that one go but when the Helmand province thing happened I just quit in disgust. Man it's frustrating...even more so because I had a TGer in the squad and my orders just didn't carry the weight they should've. I expected the TGer to act as FT leader I guess. I didn't say it so maybe that's my fault. For the most part the squad moved when and where I wanted to but at critical times the lapses just killed us. Guess I'm spoiled with the 1st.
    |TG-1st|Grunt

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Grunt knows where im coming from it's just extremely frusterating as you say when you give a simple easy to follow order and they don't obide by it eventually after the 2-4th time, i remove them from the squad, lock it, and only invite members who i KNOW are good team players.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    The Squad Leader as Drill Instructor

    One way to address discipline issues is to provide numerous short objectives and discuss the execution of them as you go along. This provides the SL with an opportunity to teach the squad without them knowing they are being trained, and evaluate members, and address problems before getting deep into enemy territory. It is not a perfect technique, but it helps. Keep in mind that what seems like discipline problems is often a lack of training and a lack of experience in real team-based squads such that we run in TG.

    Give a series of move to orders that takes you around the enemy's flank, somewhere reasonably safe but still moving strategically. With each short move-to you can brief you men on following fireteam leaders (if used), explain what is expected/required behaviour, and so on. When dealing with very new-to-TG players, each time a SM is out of position or does the wrong thing correct their behaviour immediately. Let them know that you are watching their every move and expect exacting levels of discipline. MOST players appreciate this as real teamplay simply is not seen in BF2 but is eagerly sought after.

    Most people are already socialized to follow leaders and get great satisfaction from knowing they are making a good contribution to the team. This is one of the things I myself was quite surprised to discover -- how important it was for me to execute my SL's orders well, and how much I 'felt' the experience of being rebuke or corrected by a SL or fireteam leader (this is also part of my ethnography of the Tactical Gamer community, the experience of emotions within a virtual environment that lacks the clues that comes with physical co-presence). The immature player, or the poorly socialized individual, simply will not adapt to the demands of mature team work and must be weeded out -- for their own happiness as much as the squad's.

    Go easy on them, but be firm. Learning is done through constant repetition, so create the circumstances you need to teach what they need to know.

    This method is made much easier if the SL stays to the rear during enemy contacts and firefights. At a safe distant the SL can observe his men and provide just the right amount of feedbeck. There is a fine line between micromanaging and being demanding. Allow for mistakes.

    Also, keep in mind that it often takes time for your men to accomplish a task -- the SL's experience of time tends to be compressed. Too often I have seen SLs or fireteam leaders expect things to happen far too quickly. And remember the fog of war. Most players are not used to staying with an asssigned fireteam member, and new players will have great difficulty locating people. Use the move-to marker to help them out and be as patient as you are demanding.

    And finally, warn the worst one, then warn him again, then tell him why he is being kicked from the squad and kick him. As the say, kill one to keep the rest in line...

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    roger dodger, that's generally what i try to do E-male, and generally i do get good listeners and there are squad members who i respect to have in my squad and enjoy playing with. if somebody new comes and ask's questions, im all up for it and will answer to the best of my knowledge but when you tell them to Follow on foot, and they get in a HMMVV or tell them to get down and hold fire, yet they get the twitchy finger, that's where i start drawing my line

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    first off we have like 500 different 1 man squads, useless. second 70% of the time there is no commander, useless. third, this is really frusterating me.
    Yeah, I came in on Al Basrah and immediately asked "What's up with all the one-man squads?" The response, from a TG no less, was "We're insurgents, what do you want?"

    My squad wasn't being led; there were a few musical-chairs moments when people kept dropping and re-joining because no one wanted the SL spot. I managed to get another guy to talk up in VoIP so we buddied up and eventually I took over command of the squad. Insisting we stick together, I directed a roaming perimeter around the Facility trying to keep the Marines from pushing in. When that flag fell I yelled "Get to Mosque!" and that flag went gray as we were en route, but after only a few short minutes we got it back. Whoever was SL at this time was doing a pretty decent job of using the waypoints to point out what I was calling for. So, even if your SL isn't doing his job and won't give up the slot, you can still perform as a backseat driver.
    |TG-6th|Belhade
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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Squad: roger--but they proceed to get in TWO Land rovers...move up to the marker and consequently bring the enemy to bear on our formerly un spotted position...Frustrated the heck out of me as this was the 2nd or 3rd time orders went down the tube with this squad....simple order, wasn't it? On a previous map my standing orders were..."guys we are playing as infantry and moving on foot"...fighting escalated and suddenly one of my guys spawns at main to bring up apc...at precisely the moment we needed bodies close to the flag to defend. We lost the flag and had to burn many tickets recapturing...I let that one go but when the Helmand province thing happened I just quit in disgust. Man it's frustrating...even more so because I had a TGer in the squad and my orders just didn't carry the weight they should've. I expected the TGer to act as FT leader I guess. I didn't say it so maybe that's my fault. For the most part the squad moved when and where I wanted to but at critical times the lapses just killed us. Guess I'm spoiled with the 1st.
    That was incredibly annoying, aside from bring up the jeeps after THREE times being told we were going in on foot, or to dismount they continued to drive RIGHT behind us. Moreover, they had one land rover PER GUY, and they continuously switched between gunners spot and drivers spot letting the jeep roll into each other or to the infantry ahead, which were following orders. I swear on VOIP one sounded five years old, either these jokers were deaf, or just terrible team players who deserved a kick from the squad/server.

    Additionally, Grunt, I'm sorry for not carrying my weight (assuming that I'm the TG player you're talking about, not sure many others were on), but I just kept getting picked off by enemies or fragged by friendlies, which I swear happened around three times. And towards the end those goddamn jeeps kept plowing into me. It was pretty frustrating for everyone with a tactical mindset, it really was. You take an inherently chaotic map such as Helmand, combined with only a handful of TG and some of the deafest pubbies around and the result is not pretty. These midday games are killing me.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Hoy View Post
    These midday games are killing me.
    And there is the rub. There is a direct correlation between the time of day the the upper limit of the overall collective maturity.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Male View Post
    And there is the rub. There is a direct correlation between the time of day the the upper limit of the overall collective maturity.
    Yep, that is definitely the case.
    Not to say you can't have good games in the day time, you can. But they are rare and you still need a good squad, which are hard to come by. When squad leading leading during these 'trough' times I completely change my leadership strategy. I try to keep it simple, but with no tolerance for insubordination. I give easy attack, defend, move, fire, destroy orders. A basic kit assignment along with basic instructions. Ie, spawn a kit with C4, move to the destroy marker and take out that bridge, or regroup on me and lets move to the marker on foot. If someone doesn't regroup, or spawn the needed kit within reason, they get kicked it is just that simple. I don't like to do it. But I don't have VOIP so asserting more authority is really out of the question. Normally the kicked player is replaced by someone willing to follow orders, and pretty soon you have a good squad.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Root View Post
    I wish we could have brought the black hawks into the fight in a better manner tonight, but we seemed to be lacking in pilots. That's just one of those things. Tomorrow night we'll have more than we need.
    I know for my part, as a pilot, the lengthy spawn times on assets like these keeps me from playing PRM. I'd be happy to fly transport (or anything else for that matter) running insertion/extraction sorties all night long - the points be damned. But I can't be bothered sitting around for anywhere between 5 and 10 minutes at a time waiting for some action when I lose my ride. Especially, if someone snaked the vehicle only to crash or have it shot down 30 seconds later.

    I've said it elsewhere, but it's worth repeating, that this "feature" makes PRM feel more like an infantry crawl than it does a modern, mixed arms battlefield - realistic or otherwise. If there’s a deficit in skilled pilots, the PRM dev teams need to look at the reasons why.

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman View Post
    I've said it elsewhere, but it's worth repeating, that this "feature" makes PRM feel more like an infantry crawl than it does a modern, mixed arms battlefield - realistic or otherwise. If there’s a deficit in skilled pilots, the PRM dev teams need to look at the reasons why.
    I don't think there's a lack of skilled pilots, however there are times when there aren't many pilots around. They could be on the OpFor, which doesn't help. The long respawn time for assets is to encourage people to use them properly, and to be careful with them. There's rarely a complete lack of useful assets, except on maps that are designed to be infantry only.
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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Braidedheadman View Post
    I know for my part, as a pilot, the lengthy spawn times on assets like these keeps me from playing PRM. I'd be happy to fly transport (or anything else for that matter) running insertion/extraction sorties all night long - the points be damned. But I can't be bothered sitting around for anywhere between 5 and 10 minutes at a time waiting for some action when I lose my ride. Especially, if someone snaked the vehicle only to crash or have it shot down 30 seconds later.

    I've said it elsewhere, but it's worth repeating, that this "feature" makes PRM feel more like an infantry crawl than it does a modern, mixed arms battlefield - realistic or otherwise. If there’s a deficit in skilled pilots, the PRM dev teams need to look at the reasons why.
    I think you'll find that in PR in general there is far less fighitng over assets. Especially on a password night. Most people who come on a password nights are ground pounders that like the teamwork. I saw several times that after the initial landings only 1 or 2 pilots actually stayed dedicated so there would be extra helo's sitting around because most would rather leave it to the professionals.
    |TG-12th| tHa_KhAn

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    Re: HUGE Teamwork Issues

    I like flying the choppers in PRM, but I agree, the long respawn time for some of these assets, combined with the wait time for your kit to be granted, can get very frustrating. Especially with the highly volitile nature of the choppers wanting to flip themselves over at a blink of an eye. Being shot down, and having to pay the price and wait for the chopper to respawn is understandable, but having to wait 3 min for the respawn after the chopper rolled itself because your left skid got stuck on a blade of grass is frustrating.

    Another issue is when the chopper gets set down away from the helo pad and then the pilot is killed. You can't get a pilot kit standing next to the chopper, and you can't always get a kit at the flags or rally points, so you're stuck going back to your main base, getting a pilot's kit, then treking your way across the map to where the chopper is sitting. It would be nice to always be able to get the kit from outside the cockpit, even if the chopper is sitting in a field or on a road somewhere.

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