Re: Spies Like Us 7/26

**icky** · 07-27-2007, 12:16 PM

Not surprising since 3/4 or more of the team were medics, looking for a working gun.

**sordavie** · 07-27-2007, 12:23 PM

I think the difference is that the G36K is the new VEPR while the VEPR has turned in to the old G36K. Before 1.7, UKR dominated the map because of the uniforms, not because of an imbalance in weapons. While the VEPR was much better than the G36K, the MG36 was much better than the RPK. Now, both the G36K and the MG36 are superior to their UKR counterparts. On top of that, the GER shotgun is much better than the UKR shotgun. Moreover, UKR has always had the inferior AT secondary weapon.

Although Mantis will tell you he thinks the As Val is better than the G-36, I much prefer the latter to the former. I'm not sure where the advantage lies there, but I think it has more to do with preference.

It's only at the medic and sniper class are the UKR weapons better than their GER counterparts. Prior to 1.7, I thought that GER had the better weapons in 3 classes while UKR had the better weapon in 3 classes and they were tied in one. That seems reasonable as far as balance goes while keep the diversity of the two sides. But now it's different. And, I'd say the same for USMC vs UKR, although I prefer the M24 over the SVD. On every infantry heavy map, it seems UKR has an inherent disadvantage now.

If I were to make the smallest modification possible to help balance, I'd make the RPK more on par with the MG36 and SAW.

BTW, nice 50:1 KD ratio Santa

**Beatnik** · 07-27-2007, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by icky

Not surprising since 3/4 or more of the team were medics, looking for a working gun.

And 80% of my squad were medics after we realized the VEPR was slightly less effective than spitballs thrown at medium velocity.

**Sawviper** · 07-27-2007, 01:22 PM

I think the main change needs to be the removal of the ironsights from the VEPR's scope view. I have not used either of the assault kits weapons that much so I can not comment on their effectiveness. But I would think making the view equal would help.

Balance wise I think we need to give it a bit to see how uneven the weapons really are. Without a doubt the MG36, M4 Benelli are superior to the Ukrainian counterparts. I would argue the AS Val is superior to the German spec ops. I think both sniper rifles are balanced now and both medic rifles have their positive situations. Lets not kid ourselves on the AT kits, both of the secondary weapons are no better than staple guns when it comes to a engagement at any range with another kit.

I will have to play on the Ukrainian side of Spies some more and see how it is. The last time we played Ukraine won pretty easily and I thought maybe no improvement had been made. I just know I was glad to play on the map and not see VEPR by my name popping up every 30 seconds.

**WhiskeySix** · 07-27-2007, 01:29 PM

For me, the problem w/ the VEPR is the front sights. When you fire, the recoil kicks the gun up and your target totally disappears behind the front sight. You then have to move your aim back down (to correct for recoil) AND reacquire the target (since they went out of sight for a split second). On some maps where the terrain is fairly geometric, that's not too big a task. However, on maps like Fallen and Spies, where people melt into the environment, quickly relocating the target can be really tough.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and how people adapt.

**shakeyjake** · 07-27-2007, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sawviper

I think the main change needs to be the removal of the ironsights from the VEPR's scope view. I have not used either of the assault kits weapons that much so I can not comment on their effectiveness. But I would think making the view equal would help.
.

I feel like that is a big part of it. While the VEPR has been nerfed, I don't feel like it's completely useless. The big problem for me was the extremely dark map and the huge iron site in scope mode made it nearly impossible to see anybody. Heck even not in scope mode, I had a hard time seeing people that were 10m in front of me. That and the RPK is nowhere near as good as the German support weapon made for rough times.

**icky** · 07-27-2007, 02:09 PM

Agreed Shakey.

After much thought, I am thinking that the darkness of the map is affecting people to very different degrees, and may be the dominant factor in the imbalance. I turn out all of the lights when I play that map and the only time I see any player is when they are running across my view at a medium or close distance. If someone is lying on the ground any more than about 30m away, they are invisible to me unless they have a muzzle flash. With the lights on, I don't see any player unless they are running over my corpse.

**WhiskeySix** · 07-27-2007, 02:20 PM

Here's a monitor-calibration page: http://www.displaycalibration.com/br..._contrast.html

Specifically, can you see that the right half is slightly "less black" than the right?

**Faultline** · 07-27-2007, 02:42 PM

Good rounds last night Santa! Had a lot of fun in your squad. I haven't really played anything BF2/POE2 in almost a year but it's fun to jump back in with familiar faces.

And for those talking about the weapons... I don't think I can see/hit/kill anyone in this mod anymore. Got any tips? My monitor seems to be adjusted to where I can barely just see the difference between Whiskey's picture above.

**FBmantis** · 07-27-2007, 05:22 PM

All I ask is that people give Spies a few more shots. The germans have an advantage since their weapons are built for the medium-long range encounters that occur in spies ...however I am confident this is not as huge a balance issue as what happened with the uniforms. We had a solid game with a UKR win the first time we played Spies. I think we can have more good games ...we will just need to make sure UKR has a better team on paper when we play the map so be thinking about team balance before you decide to switch when this map comes up. Doesn't have to be completely stacked better but UKR should have an edge you can see by looking at the SLers and players. Better teamwork, leadership and twitch is still going to win this map. This is not like the old Spies where even a stacked team can't compete.

Also for you guys who feel lost with the new Vepr. I don't disagree its a big change...I alluded to this in the weapons preview. I knew people would have trouble with it. Trust me though it is still a very good weapon if you play it to its strengths. You can not burst or auto anymore at targets in the distance so don't even bother with that. On Spies and on other maps ALWAYS use your one shot mode when you are shooting at targets that are not next to you. The gun is still very accurate and the damage dealt out is still the highest out of every gun. So tap tap tap away and your targets will fall very quickly.

**icky** · 07-27-2007, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Here's a monitor-calibration page: http://www.displaycalibration.com/br..._contrast.html

Specifically, can you see that the right half is slightly "less black" than the right?

The right looks the same as the right to me.

(yes, I can see the difference)

**Santa** · 07-27-2007, 07:08 PM

Although ill agree theres some balance problems in Spies still, its not nearly as bad as some people are alluding to.

First of all, mantis described the guns perfectly. Although the G36 is probably better suited to the longer range encounters that you get in Spies, i have hardly seen anyone use the VEPR correctly yet because they are still using it like its 1.15. It is not the type of gun you can hold down your mouse button and expect to kill anything you look at. Instead, like every other gun in the game, you actually have to aim it now! :0 Indeed, its not quite as good at range as the G36, but its not THAT bad on quick single shots.

The second part of it is the team balance, as in who is on which team, and the resulting way the battle occurred. First, look at this screenshot that shows the teams better. Whoever said that the teams were "even" in terms of twitch and skill is not very good at judging people's abilities. On the UKR team, i see THREE twitchy players with very few top notch team players. On GER, i see SIX twitchy players with a HOST of awesome team players. I saw on so many occasions UKR players not finding cover, laying prone in the middle of a giant snow patch, and UKR SLs leading the charge and standing in the middle of snow patches. Our team didnt do that quite as much. Finally, the good squad leader ratio is also out of whack. I see two competent squad leaders for UKR, and 4 competent squad leaders for GER. With those teams, i can guarantee GER would have won any infantry map.

So what does the above all mean for the battle itself? It means that once GER is able to capture a few flags, they are able to keep them because all 4 of their primary SLs are smart and fill in the gaps. The GER team was constantly able to adjust to where other SLs were defending. Also, with smart SLs that fill in gaps like that, GER was able to surround UKR bases while still defending their own by denying UKR access to rear flags. Being surrounded means you die a lot more from many different locations, which can lead one to think a weapon imbalance is worse than it actually is.

So overall, i agree that the G36 is better in Spies than the VEPR is. But its no worse than the VEPR was in Fallen in 1.15, and we never pulled that map. Please, keep trying this map and keep in mind that the VEPR needs to be relearned and that we really havent had balanced teams yet. I mean shoot, the total rounds won in Spies is 2-1 for GER. Its not like 1.15 where its 20-1 for UKR!

**sordavie** · 07-27-2007, 07:30 PM

I don't think anyone is saying that we should pull the map. Indeed, that and Fallen are my two favorite maps. Just saying that there are some weapon imbalances to keep an eye on.

**icky** · 07-27-2007, 07:38 PM

Well if you really believe it isn't anything other than teams, then I'm disappointed in the fact that no action was taken to fix the problem. It falls on the shoulders of some of the "twitch players" to identify that they are entirely ruining the night for 25 people and perhaps even ruining the entire perception of the mod by roaming the map unopposed for 45 minutes. Some time around the point where you and 3 of your teammates hit 25-0, you need to recognize the problem and fix it.

I still believe it was mostly about lighting and weapons though.

**shakeyjake** · 07-27-2007, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by WhiskeySix

Here's a monitor-calibration page: http://www.displaycalibration.com/br..._contrast.html

Specifically, can you see that the right half is slightly "less black" than the right?

Maybe that's my problem, they both look pitch black to me.

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