Re: Spies Like Us 7/26

**Santa** · 07-31-2007, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Beatnik

When we start seeing one-sided blowouts in favor of UKR on that map, I'll agree with that statement.

This was posted elsewhere, but...

As you can see, UKR not only won but they have gigantic K/Ds. Someone else said before that the round that started this thread had twitchy UKR players that were unable to achieve high K/D, presumably because of crappy weapons. Aside from myself and mantis, those teams are pretty even--a little imbalanced but not hugely.

This goes to show that superior tactics WILL overcome marginal* weapon imbalances as bane explained in his first paragraph. Each time ive seen a team lose decisively in Spies it was because they did not move well and the winning side did. In Spies you have to spread your squad out, create firing lanes, have medics hanging farther back than usual, use cover, and as a team you have to surround your enemy and advance at all times instead of traditionally defend flags.

*I said marginal weapon imbalances because i think once you forget all you knew about the VEPR from before and re-learn the weapon, the G36 is only marginally better than the VEPR in Spies. Id say the G36 is better than the VEPR in Spies just as the VEPR was better than the G36 in Fallen.

**sordavie** · 07-31-2007, 06:45 PM

It should be noted, Santa, that this was the first night the new patch came out, and it doesn't look like the GER players have discovered how good the G36 is yet (looking at the teamwork scores). It's likely, they stayed away from the GER assault kit because a lot of us are used to picking the medic, spec ops, or support kit over the assault kit as GER on this map. 75% of their top 14 played support or medic for a substantial time judging by teamwork scores. Moreover, I remember it not being a blowout by UKR. I remember someone remarking that it was close and refreshing that GER wasn't blown out.

**Beatnik** · 08-01-2007, 01:59 AM

I'd look again at the top 7 or 8 players for both teams. There are certainly some twitch champions on the UKR side. Not sure if that match was a blowout or not, but given those teams, on the face of it it appears that twitchability played a significant factor in the score differential. I say that of course having not played that game and not having seen the final score.

Irregardless, just from my own experience I'll typically have a 2:3 KD ratio playing UKR, and a 3:1 or 4:1 playing GER so far on the map. I'll entertain the possibility that I haven't 'learned' the changes in weapons yet, but in my experience a significant weapons imbalance still exists.

**BaneII** · 08-01-2007, 03:00 AM

I love how people are ignoring the tactics that Santa and I have explained that our team was using to dominate the map. Spies has such a reputation attached to it, that, evidently, the only way for Germany to win is that the Ukrainian weapons have clearly been nerfed. Look at previous Spies AAR's when Germany wins and you will see discussions akin to this one ignoring German tactics. We've told you the tactics Germany used. What I haven't seen is someone describe the tactics that the Ukrainian squad leaders or CO were using to overcome being totally surrounded and pounded. If the answer is "We didn't use any" then I reply "I rest my case." This is supposed to be Tactical Gamer. Ignoring tactics and equating wins solely to "weapon superiority" now that the uniform issue is a non-issue is lame in my book. I would put forth that if the sides were switched, we would have pulled out a Ukrainian win.

**Santa** · 08-02-2007, 02:41 AM

Got to play in Spies tonight as UKR finally.

UKR lost by quite a bit, but it was due to 2 things. One, too many TG guys all bunched up in one squad, and two, horrible squad leader tactics and zerging. The movement was horrible by the majority of the squads, and having just 2 squads move well is not enough to overcome every other squads faults. I was talking to mantis in X-fire who played as GER. Apparently their squads were moving superbly.

As for the weapons, i felt slightly outclassed with a VEPR instead of a G-36, but it wasn't nearly as bad as everyone alluded to. Hell, i even killed mantis more times than he killed me! I put it on single shot and did just fine. Not as good as i would have with a G-36, but it wasnt a huge difference. If you put the VEPR, or really any gun on full auto in Spies you are asking to be killed. Keep it on single shot when in the forest, and full auto only if you are right up near a flag where CQC is more likely. I told my squad to keep their guns on single shot, but still i saw a few of them keep it on full auto, just praying that their spray would hit something. If you are not willing to change how you use the weapon, then i will not buy any comments about how underpowered the VEPR is in Spies.

But alas, maybe its easier to blame it on the guns rather than our own lack of strategy and creativity.

**xanathemax** · 08-02-2007, 03:04 AM

I was on UKR for spies as well, and it really was tactics more than anything. The team tended to move in waves, tended to hit flags straight on every time, and didn't really kit up properly. I was in a squad led by a non-TG guy and we tried to attack South Cabin for about 10 minutes and it was just "spawn on me, move in" the whole time, with no real plan for movement or anything. It really does come down to leadership I think. A lot of people talk about the GER weapons being better at range but the way the map's configured there's really no reason for the UKR team to be fighting the Germans at range, considering they should have the flags they plan to defend before the Germans are able to hit the shore.

**Santa** · 08-02-2007, 03:35 AM

To show what im talking about, here are two screenshots taken at approximately the same time from both teams. The first is my UKR team, the second is Mantis's GER team.

My squad capped bunkers, and from there everyone followed and spread out toward their deaths in as unorganized a fashion as conceivably possible. What is all that land out to the east doing untouched? Why does squad 3 think he is Superman? Why are squads 1 and 4 not only bunched up, but attacking from the same direction? WHY DOES THIS PISS ME OFF?

It pisses me off because the other team is spread out VERY nicely, and my team could not get their crap together. Squads 4, 3, and 6 are spread out along the line toward bunker. Nothing will get through that wall at all, even whilst outnumbered. Then on the far east you got squads 5 and 2 who will easily capture the totally undefended camp.

I hope you see the stark contrast in strategy between these two screenshots. One team is haphazardly running around like chickens with their heads cut off, while the other team is looking at their minimaps and deciding where best they can place themselves to surround the enemy. All of the losses i have seen so far have been from one team playing stupid, and the other playing smart.

**BaneII** · 08-02-2007, 04:28 AM

Here are the final screenshots:

I'm gonna say Santa is referring to my squad as the one with too many TG's. Regardless, I still had to do a lot of yelling ...er directing because people are still unclear on the best tactics and maneuvering to use on this map. Having three people choose medic only resulted in multiple medics running for one revive because no one was calling out their target revive. This lack of communication and coordination only results in high inefficiency as you have three guns holstered with defibs out instead of one.

For some unknown reason, Ukraine was into cuddling tonite because for the majority of the time they would bunch up at one flag. Twice my squad ended up capturing and defending a flag against superior numbers while the rest of the team would be at our only other flag. Sitting directly around a flag and letting Germany roam free is a sure way to a loss.

Anyway, I walked away with a 5-1 kill/death ratio using the Ukraine support kit with the RPK. Tonight I had spent an unusually high amount of time in single shot sniping and killing German targets at long range in various forms of cover. I was even able to take out prone targets that were returning fire at me. I'm pretty comfortable with my performance with the Ukrainian RPK against the so-called superiority of the German weapons. All it takes is to learn and master the weapon.

Oh, and props to my squad members Clawhammer, Cantpick, 50AE, Thundeer, and Luuser. Well played even though I was constantly yelling out orders. It got results though!

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