Re: reduce de respawn time

**Lucky Shot** · 12-22-2007, 05:54 PM

Forgotten Hope is driving for a WWII style battlefield which includes full armies battling against one another. Not because it's stupid, suicidal and spammy, but that's how wars were fought back then. The Russians slaughtered their own people when they retreated, and the US/UK/Canadians put their troops in an advance or die situation in Normandy. There were "Acceptable" losses and at times armies had to advance even in the teeth of death.

Tactical Gamer hosted Battlefield Vanilla with 64 players which felt like it was full army on full army without it being stupid, suicidal and spammy and the same can be said of POE. I am confident we can do the same with Forgotten Hope. If you think that WWII is best represented by having a very small handful of players sitting back then I think you have the wrong idea of war at that time.

Lucky Shot

**ikonic** · 12-22-2007, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzhead

Lucky Shot - what your asking for simple isnt possible on BF2 engine.

IMO - all shorter respawn times does is encourage spammy, suicidal and stupid tactics. It DOES NOT make the battle feel larger or anything like that. The only thing that would make the battle feel larger, is getting a higher max player count.... just have to wait for a next gen game with the right engine to pull that off... until then, just gonna have to live with 'pidy little special forces action' cause even with an insanely short respawn time, that is what it feels like :P

There is one BIG difference to PR and FH2.

THERE ARE NO MEDICS.

When I want to play FH2, I want to play it, NOT stare at a respawn screen for 90 seconds (or however "longer" people want it).

FH2 IS NOT PR; although this is a bit off topic for what is at hand, I think it needs to be said. If you want PR tactics and gameplay, go play PR. Is there something wrong with PR where the PR population has to flock to FH2 (not just TG) and complain on how it doesn't play out like PR? FH2 has SOME "real" gameplay aspects, but by no means groundbreaking. For all you PR players: In reality, when you die, that's it - there's no respawn, but in PR, you have a respawn timer, that's not too realistic is it? If PR only gave you ONE life, would the gameplay be the same? Of course not, and when you alter the respawn timer for games, it has a profound effect. FH2 IS NOT PR - deal with it. The 2 games are like comparing apples and bananas, and only has one common ground, the fact that it's a fruit.

**asch** · 12-22-2007, 06:07 PM

Spawn times will always be a balancing act.

The argument for reducing spawn times to allow a more epic battle would lead to eliminating spawn times all together. Unfortunately having too short of spawn times does lead to players not placing value on their lives and playing in a less than realistic manner.

The opposite is to great increase the spawn times to make players value their lives more. However spawn times that are too long can really detract from the game play.

The battlefield series games / mods are trying for larger scale battles and we don't want to have players sitting on the sideline for too long. The game also has extremely powerful weapons / vehicles that lead to quite a few more deaths.

Tactical Gamer has typically gone the route of no respawns prior to the BF series. We still would like to see longer respawn times in games where we allow respawns. The battlefield games have not always lived up to par with what was hoped for by Tactical Gamer.

I don't see us reducing spawn times, but I'm not sure I see the FH2 spawn times increasing to levels like PR.

**WhiskeySix** · 12-22-2007, 06:29 PM

It really is a balancing act. It's particularly tough with FH2 because A) the mod does have a semi-realistic feel to it (Suppression effects, no enemy nametags, etc) and B) the FH2 battlefield is a very dangerous place to party (just about everything one-shot kills infantry and there are no revives).

On the one hand, we want to discourage "uncareful" play through a "mildly annoying" (my words, not TG's) spawn time. On the other hand, it's very easy to get killed even when playing very carfully, and we don't want to punish those playing the way it's meant to be played.

Spawntimes also affect the attacker vs. defender balance. The shorter the respawn time, the more advantage defenders have, as it becomes increasingly difficult for attackers to clear a CP area for long enough to secure the flag. Regardless of spawntimes, attackers are already effectively at a 5 vs 6 disadvantage since, with no revives, the FTL can't engage freely while attacking.

Anyway - the current spawn time is 25 seconds. I think it's at a pretty good spot personally. It's mildly annoying when I die, but it's not so long as to get me really annoyed if I happen to be dying a lot. Of course, everyone's annoyance threshold is different, so I can respect both those that want shorter and longer spawn times than that.

**asch** · 12-22-2007, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by ikonic

FH2 IS NOT PR; although this is a bit off topic for what is at hand, I think it needs to be said. If you want PR tactics and gameplay, go play PR. Is there something wrong with PR where the PR population has to flock to FH2 (not just TG) and complain on how it doesn't play out like PR? FH2 has SOME "real" gameplay aspects, but by no means groundbreaking.

This isn't about making FH2 into PR. It's about making FH2 @ TG game-play that of which Tactical Gamer expects out of the particular title.

For all you PR players: In reality, when you die, that's it - there's no respawn, but in PR, you have a respawn timer, that's not too realistic is it? If PR only gave you ONE life, would the gameplay be the same? Of course not, and when you alter the respawn timer for games, it has a profound effect.

The battlefield series at TG has never been about 32 player armies fighting each other. Unfortunately the game engine limits the number of players allowed on the server. Respawning isn't about coming back to life. It's about coming back as a different member of that army.

Trying to justify respawns with reality in a game like Battlefield isn't going get very far.

FH2 IS NOT PR - deal with it.

That's not really the attitude to take. Each mod is it's own and Tactical Gamer will determine the settings based on the style of game play we're striving for.

**ikonic** · 12-22-2007, 07:47 PM

The fact is though Asch is that it isn't just here where players want more PR-oriented gameplay -- the FH2 forums is rife with this, along with players in game. It isn't a discussion that is exclusive to TG. I am not here suggesting other signature concepts in other mods to be involved in FH2 (or POE, or any other game), and content with the fact that the majority of good gameplay is unique and not a total ripoff from something else. The point in question is that if (x) mod is so good and enjoyable for you, then why do you want (y) game to be a clone of it? It's unoriginal and boring conceptual wise.

**Doctor.** · 12-23-2007, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by ikonic

There is one BIG difference to PR and FH2.

THERE ARE NO MEDICS.

When I want to play FH2, I want to play it, NOT stare at a respawn screen for 90 seconds (or however "longer" people want it).

FH2 IS NOT PR; although this is a bit off topic for what is at hand, I think it needs to be said. If you want PR tactics and gameplay, go play PR. Is there something wrong with PR where the PR population has to flock to FH2 (not just TG) and complain on how it doesn't play out like PR? FH2 has SOME "real" gameplay aspects, but by no means groundbreaking. For all you PR players: In reality, when you die, that's it - there's no respawn, but in PR, you have a respawn timer, that's not too realistic is it? If PR only gave you ONE life, would the gameplay be the same? Of course not, and when you alter the respawn timer for games, it has a profound effect. FH2 IS NOT PR - deal with it. The 2 games are like comparing apples and bananas, and only has one common ground, the fact that it's a fruit.

QFT

**Bernout** · 12-23-2007, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ikonic

The fact is though Asch is that it isn't just here where players want more PR-oriented gameplay -- the FH2 forums is rife with this, along with players in game. It isn't a discussion that is exclusive to TG. I am not here suggesting other signature concepts in other mods to be involved in FH2 (or POE, or any other game), and content with the fact that the majority of good gameplay is unique and not a total ripoff from something else. The point in question is that if (x) mod is so good and enjoyable for you, then why do you want (y) game to be a clone of it? It's unoriginal and boring conceptual wise.

Well to be fair most people who don't like the PR suggestions are probably POE2 players.

Aren't each of us wanting to take the gameplay we enjoy the most and apply it to FH2? That doesn't necessarily mean we want to clone the other mods since FH2 at its core has so much to offer beyond things like respawn times.

Originally Posted by asch

That's not really the attitude to take. Each mod is it's own and Tactical Gamer will determine the settings based on the style of game play we're striving for.

The question then becomes what style of game play are we striving for.

Bernout

**ikonic** · 12-23-2007, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bernout

Aren't each of us wanting to take the gameplay we enjoy the most and apply it to FH2?

Certainly not. I haven't suggested one element of gameplay from any other mod/game for FH2, because I feel the gameplay is unique for a BF2 mod - it's the whole reason we ALL went to get it right? Just because I play POE2 more than PR doesn't mean I dislike PR suggestions in general, so that fallacy has just been crushed. As an avid My Little Pony player, I am not suggesting the fact that the Nazis wear pink get-ups while the British storm El Alamein riding mystical white ponies to battle (and to eventually trample and gore the Nazi's with their hooves) now am I?

As others said: the things that need to be done are balancing acts and I whole-heartedly agree. What I disagree with is adding clearly defined outside influences to the game, and creating a possible imbalance.

**kilevvri1** · 12-23-2007, 11:09 PM

I think our going to have to come to the conclusion that if mostly PR folks play FH2 then they will wan to to make it into PR. If its POE2 people then they will lean towards that mod. IMHO

Look at my problems with disconnects on Pripyat & sake Eye's as an example of opinions over trends.

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