CymBa

Now here is something I think I'm going to recieve a lot of flak for but I'm thinking about the gameplay implications not the convenience or cool factor for the players doing this action including myself.

I think EA needs to stop the ability to repair vehicles while u're mounted in them. I personally don't think it was their intention for it to be that way just a side-effect they never foresaw.

Now don't get me wrong. I've been guilty of using that exploit (cuz that's what it is) myself but I realise it makes it very unfair to anyone trying to take the vehicle down. Ofcourse you know I'm talking about the BlackHawk especially since no one really fly's the MEC/PLA choppers for long and the armored cars don't have enuff HP to survive many hits anyways.

We all agree that compared to the other choppers the BlackHawk miniguns are FIERCE (god I love 'em) however couple that with 2 engineers (or even just 1) repairing it in the air it makes it nearly impossible for the opposing force to shoot 1 down. I've seen a black hawk take 2 - 3 AT hits and fly away , only to be back a few seconds later fully repaired. With mini-guns blazing its VERY hard to even get a clear shot at the BH anywayz and because he's almost invulnerable the pilot knows he can afford to take a hit or 2 and therefore just sits there and hovers making a stable platform for his gunners to defend the chopper.

My squad and I were on Wetlands wednesday night and we saw this exploit being used to good effect. a Full BH was flying all over the map Capping flags in less than 5 secs and we couldn't shoot it down, we'd hit it but it'd just repair in mid-air. My squad mates had APC's and I was flying the MI-28 and I would line up the BH and hit it with 10 or so of my 14 rockets (which wasn't hard since he was just hovering), my gunner would also be firing and it would start smoking baldly, it would dodge the cannons a bit and by the time my missiles reloaded it would stop smoking and be almost as good as new right there before my eyes. I ended up having to use all 3 magazines of missiles PLUS the Cannon PLUS RAM it to get that damn thing to blow up. Surely that can't be as intended.

This sort of thing ruins the map for the opposing team because we can see the BH coming in , can't do a thing about it while it caps a flag even tho we hit it multiple times and it just flies off. It's really bad for MEC on maps like Mashtuur, it requires too many of our team to carry AT just to SCARE the BH off which takes up slots we could for other classes to deal with infantry. The evidence of this is the INSANE number of kills BH crews get on those maps.

What makes them so deadly is the already powererful miniguns and the fact that the pilot doesn't have to maneouvre a lot since he can take a couple hits. If the pilot actually had to FLY evasively as opposed to just moving slowly then the miniguns wouldn't be as overwhelming to anyone on the ground. BlackHawks are supposed to be in grave danger in a hot combat zone.If the LZ is too hot for a BH then its partially the responsibility of the ground forces to make it safer for the BH as opposed to having the BH dominate any part of the map its in completly unattended and fly around with impunity.

If EA intended vehicles to be repairable while mounted then why not do it for all of them, like the APC and the Tank? OR why not make it that they repair once an engineer is inside them (even at a reduced rate) as opposed to having to contort urself to look at the ceiling/floow/wall or a certain part of the vehicle while u're in a 'special' spot to repair it. All of this just suggests it was unintentional.

Now some might say why don't we on MEC/PLA just do the same thing with our choppers? I guess we could but then u'd end up with a bunch of invulnerable choppers flying around capping flags. Where would be the fun in that? We already complain of the Whack-The-Mole crap already, why add to it?

I realise its very tempting to use this exploit, but for the good of the game lets try to avoid doing this and make the game fun for everyone as is the point of the TG servers anywayz

RandomGuy

I don't have the background in the BF series to be able to say for sure this is an exploit, but I agree with the point you make. To me it seems like an exploit and good job bringing it up because if others feel this way then a decision needs to be made.

kin3

I agree.

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The Old Guy
kin3

Seraosha

I disagree.

One well aimed AT shot will kill everyone in the crew compartment of a BH.
Done it.
A sniper can take out the pilot (usually the SL), and it becomes a mad dash to grab the stick.
Seen it.

I dont see using an engineer as a moving repair station as a problem (I play an Engineer, so take my opinion on the matter with a grain of salt). I see seriously lacking AA assets in this game.

I want stingers that actually track and hit/kill 60% of the time. I want to launch 4 (FOUR!1) from my linebacker, see them hit, and see that chopper crash...I don't care how fast someone swings a wrench, 4 stingers into a helicopter will leave nothing but a smoking crater.

So, no...I don't think its an exploit.
Yes, BF2 needs better modeled damage from AA assets.

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Edwin

I too have done what Sera has claimed. Just killing the occupants instead of the machine, Works every time. Also the weal spot on helos are the top (rotors). I haven't checked if side of the rotors also work.

ABPositive

I was a BH pilot yesterday evening, on server 2, during the Mashtur 32-player map. Our squad raked 587 points in one round. Don't get me wrong, we were not here to earn points, but we were here to win the match.

To this end we adopted a suitable tactic. As you mention above, we had 2 engineers, but also 2 spec ops and 1 medic. We were dropping soldiers to take flags, others to take out enemy UAV and artillery, and finally picked them up before providing air support to our troops. We coordinated our ground attacks with the commander. The CO would start the UAV, and we would slowly circle the swarm of enemies, doing massive damage with the miniguns. Now I can understand that must have been very frustrating on the receiving end.

Now to your point...

On one hand I agree with you. The minigun may need some nerfing, in particular their range needs to be shortened a bit. Or the MEC / Chinese choppers could use some love.

But on the other hand, I think there are remedies to every problem. In particular, in Mashtur, there are some counter attacks that the MEC could have organized. The best way to get the BH off the sky is to cap the North East flag, and defend it. No more BH, period. Unfortunately, it seems that this option has been overlooked. We died a couple of times, only to find the North East base desert. We never saw the enemy attack this particular flag. Instead, they were all fighting in town.

In addition to this, I believe there are many other "exploits" in BF2. To relate to your post, two vehicles manned by engineers can repair each other. Put two engineers in two vehicles, and make them move in close formation, and you'll see massive damage (in 32 player maps where there is no bomber jets, that is). Never seen it done before.

We are all learning BF2, and we'll discover tactics that work on certain maps. This is just an example. And to each tactic, you'll find another one to counter it.

Kedge

I don't know if EA would recongize this as an exploit or not- but personally I don't mind it. There are strategies to defeat the Blackhawk, and it's satisfying to take down an entire squad in it. Shooting people out of it, hitting with tanks, etc. It can be done. I have been on both sides of the issue, in the back repairing the Blackhawk (and it's not all sweetness and light back there, it's actually pretty hairy) and on the ground getting pounded by those guns.

When there's some good squads going I've noticed that people recongnize the threat the Blackhawk poses, and actually "pass" the position from one squad to another (spot enemy air, always always always, it really helps your airforce), everyone taking their shot until it's down.

So, I'm not against it- I actually like it. I would like to have more strategies developed for dealing with the threat it poses in-game as a strategic challenge, rather than having it "patched" out.

CymBa

I've done the same thing too, or shot some from the ground with the Support gun or LGM. I've even used the assault grenade and hit in there too. However its hard enough to even HIT an even slowly moving BH from a distance when under fire much less to aim it for the crew compartment specifically. It shouldn't require specialized tactics outside of the intended game mechanics to accomplish this. What I am saying is that its an exploit because its outside of EA's intent.

2 Direct hits are enough to take down or SEVERELY damage a blackhawk. At this point the BH crew is supposed to either withdraw from the combat area to land and repair or hover near another vehicle to get repairs. Either way the BH is SUPPOSED to do SOMETHING and leave the combat zone which partially achieves the objectives of the AA, air deterrant. With the exploit the BH can continue to supress the area regardless.

3-4 direct hits from mobile AA is enuff to kill one but not all maps have them. So what u end up with is fixed 2 shot SAMS have been made worthless by the exploit even IF they get 2 direct hits. Even 1 hit from a sam should chase away a BH because he's afraid of the 2nd. Either way he's leaving the combat zone to repair not sitting their ignoring the fire.

Look at it this way. EA does have a method for repairing vehicles while mounted. Its by being beside another vehicle with an engineer. However if u look carefully u'll notice that the RATE of repair is slower than if the engineer did it himself. THAT is one of the controlling factors to keep it from being abused too much in battle. IF repairing the blackhawk internally used the same REDUCED rate that would be more or less ok I think BUT its using the same rate as if the engineer was OUTSIDE, AND its doing it w/o needing a 2nd vehicle as EA intended. That just shouts exploit. Now if u wanted to be able to pull off the same repair in midair thing /w using the exploit .. have 2 choppers with engineers fly in tandem. THAT would require a LOT of skill, BUT if they pulled it off they would DESERVE to be hard to shoot down and I would give the pilots involved a standing ovation. But having some guy sit in the back position of the BH, look at the ceiling and hold down the left mouse button to make the helo invulnerable is not skill, its exploitation.

I personally don't necessarily WANT them to increase the SAM accuracy too much because as a Helo pilot its already HELL flying in some areas with just 1 to 2 SAMS. Its a constant dodging match which is how it should be. Make them too accurate and u make helo's pointless to fly which none of us want. Its a delicate balancing act.

Arf

I think the BH is overpowered but it's not invincible.

It's a large vehicle that you can see from a good distance and it can be hurt by just about anything. When you're on the MEC team make it a priority to shoot that thing whenever you see it. Even if you're infantry unload a magazine into it, it will make a difference. The mounted machine guns on the Humvees and buggies are also pretty effective. They do good damage and have some penetration power, if you lead well they have the rate of fire to clear out crew members from a very long distance. It's kind of a band-aid fix of a strategy but the only way to keep it down is with team wide concentration.

What really needs to be happening is for the jets to come and shoot the BH down. Their guns and missles give them more then enough fire power to kill a transport helicopter even if it does have engineers.

CymBa

Yes but the repair rate is slower than what u're getting with an engineer doing it directly. This is what EA did to reduce its effectiveness. The BH is inadvertently getting the FULL repair speed or even DOUBLE that if both engineers can repair. That can't be right.

I agree with this too and was thinking the same thing when I realised that spawn point controlled the BH. But now what u're ending up with is a team modifying its tactics just to get control of an overpowered unit or keep it out of battle. The power units in the game are supposed to be the Tanks. Helicopters are supposed to be powerful but weak to compensate. You do realise, by requiring 2-3 direct AT hits in QUICK Sucession I might add, u're making a transport helicopter almost as or even more powerful than a TANK? That had to be unintentional. Reparing on-the-fly is supposed to require some work before u can receive the benefits, and that work is to require a 2nd vehicle and even then u're getting reduced benefits. The BH is getting FULL or DOUBLE that by just sacrificing 1-2 ppl slots. How is that fair?

I agree with you all, I feel GREAT when I finally shoot down a BH full of squad members but what I'm saying is based on the evidence their toughness in the case is unintended. A helicopter is not supposed to require 42 HE rockets plus fire from an explosive cannon to be brought down JUST because there's a guy with a wrench sitting in the backseat.

CymBa

Actually I'm NOT saying that the BH is overpowered. Granted it is better than the others choppers but some could argue that the cannon on the Mi-28 is VERY good for killing infantry. Its part of the uniqueness of the BH. If you put a full squad in there u can do the same things u do now.

However the unbalancing factor in all of this is the repair inflight advantage. Every unit in the game has an achilles heel. The achilles heel of the choppers is their vulnerability. Which the BH has ordinarily to counter its power and utility. You're supposed to work hard to keep it in the air, not just sit back and watch half the team constantly working at keeping 1 flying unit at bay. As I said.. not even tank garners that sort of attention. You can have the an engineer repair a tank which makes it much longer however during that period the tank and engineer is usually vulnerable and even if the engineer is in another vehicle they're getting a reduced repair to compensate for it.

See where I'm going with this guys. I'm not bashing the BH, I'm bashing the exploit and stating why I consider it an exploit from a GAMEPLAY perspective and in the context of the game universe created by DICE/EA. Using it is subverting the checks and balances put in place to prevent abuse.

ABPositive

Is it realistic to repair a chopper while in flight? No. Was it intended by DICE... probably yes. Reading the Strategy guide published by Prima, which was done with the cooperation of EA and possibly DICE, the BH is meant to be a important asset, possibly a game turner. More than a tank or a jeep. This is intentional.

Whether you are planning the strategy for MEC or for USMC, you have to take the BH power into account, and work with it. Just like the Queen when playing chess.

Mishkan

then why can't you have somebody inside an APC for example that starts repairing it?

And you can always crash into a blackhawk... which I end up doing because always I get the most horrible ping spikes at the wrong time

ABPositive

I agree this technique gives the transport choppers a privilege not given to other vehicles, and it is not realistic. So what?

I think the chopper / engineer technique is actually a good example of what makes BF2 great. What I mean is, I do not care what technique is developped, as long as it is sound, and forces the opponent to adapt. Think or die. On Mashtur, if you don't learn to counter the BH power, you'll loose the game.

It actually gives something for the CO to think about. I've played as a CO, and scan+artillery gets old very quickly. Having to deal with a new threat is, in my opinion, more challenging and more rewarding when you manage to deal with it. New exploits will make BF2 new every day. So I'm all for new exploits, as long as they can be countered :-)

Solo_Dallas

Need to quote and possibly underline. Not valid for chopper only, but for jets as well.
Otherwise, you end up being a good pilot in a few hours, and get 20 kills two deaths easily: UNfair.


Need to sweat it more you know?


So be it, please bring the better AA ingame asap.