Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. - Page 2

Lagomorph · 07-14-2005, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski-Racer

Either hit detection is bad or the aircraft can take too much punishment before going down. If I hit a blackhawk when shooting the main cannon of a tank, the blackhawk should not go down, it should vaporize.

Defintely...
On Mashtuur tonight I hit the BH with the main tank cannon on at least 5 different occasions(with the 50 cal going the whole time too) and it only came down once when the rest of my squad was gunning it with AT and other 50 cals from jeeps. =(
I then went on to hit attack helos a few different times on Kubra Dam...they barely seemed to notice. =(

Then again it is quite unrealistic to be hitting a helo with a tank cannon, so I probably shouldn't complain about the realism of damage on impact. ;P

StrikeFear · 07-14-2005, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apophis

If you're dealing with an aircraft a long distance away and they are not advancing on your position or threatening you in any way, just keep that lock and keep the rockets firing.

There is a non-zero degree of danger in that action, however, of causing team damage. Once those missiles are away, it doesn't matter what you thought you were locked on to - they'll go for any heat source, and in my experience, seem to prefer friendlies.

If you want my advice (as a regular pilot), don't fire unless you have a clean, clear target.

Wulfyn · 07-14-2005, 06:35 AM

Quote:

I understand they won't be able to follow a last-minute 90-degree turn

Well I think they can. The average short range missile has a turning rate of around 5 times that of a jet at the same speed (don't see too many jets pull a 40g turn...). Dodging missiles should be the exception not the mainstream.

Modern missiles that aquire a lock (a la 'fire and forget') can also calculate position of impact, so they will lead a target. They also can recognise a 'miss', exploding nearby in order to try and do some damage. Might be a bit too simulation for bf2 tho.

I think we're maybe being a little derogatory of the technology in missiles. Long gone are the days where sindwinders would fly towards the sun due to a heat lock

Stabmaster · 07-14-2005, 08:28 AM

I enjoyed making bombing runs on you last night Cymba during a round on the Dam map.

Lagomorph · 07-14-2005, 08:31 AM

The way much of the stuff in BF2 works is very unrealistic, AA missiles just being one big obvious one. However I think the way they work right now does fairly well as far as balance and gameplay. =)

I'm likely to be be wrong about it since I'm not involved with our armed forces, but my general notion of how modern air combat works generally involves never actually seeing hostiles, just blips on fun little screens. ^^
- And that just wouldn't be all that fun in a game now would it...a little too much like being CO... ;P

Buster Charlie · 07-14-2005, 09:19 AM

I think having missles 'lead' the target may be too unforgiving for most pilots.

I for one HATED the video showing the missile passing through the BH doors.

Modern missiles, and some ordinance since WWII (mostly American) has something called a proximity fuse. Correct me if im wrong here. But short story is the warhead can tell if its within 'leathal' range of an object and it will detonate even if it has not made direct contact.

I think the AA missiles should detonate within a certain range of an object. The trade off could be that they would also detonate within a certain range of ANY object (buildings, other aircraft) Maybe the missile's wouldn't 'arm' this untill it was within X meters of the targeted aircraft (to avoid the missile exploding right next to a sandbag by the launcher)

Anyway, realisticaly this is all pointless because the chances of them implementing this into BF2 are zero.

TEMM · 07-14-2005, 09:42 AM

I think the biggest issue with the AA missles, especially the ground launched variety, is the fact that you can fire at a blackhawk thats moving relitively slowly perpendicular to your position, and the missle will fly off and miss by a good margin. Its almost as if the missles dont even track the target at all some times, even with a good clean lock. I mean even a straight head on shot will miss!

The only time ive ever been able to down anything is firing after they have passed so the missle goes up their tailpipe. While this is ok for jets in a dogfight, you are more likely going to be interested in downing that bomber thats about to drop a few tons of ordinance on your head in a few seconds in the ground based AA.

Telorn · 07-14-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokingTarpan

All I know is that I have, multiple times, fired mounted AA at a nearby stationary/moving in a straight line away from me target that didn't drop chaff/flares, and got to watch the rockets sail right past. Other times I have watched pilots execute a slow, small turn at the beginning of a lock and evade completely.

The rockets are supposed to have lock-on capabilties; as in following their target. I understand they won't be able to follow a last-minute 90-degree turn, but I'm not even seeing them follow a slow-moving or stationary target. From what I've seen, they're acting like fire and forget rockets. I've downed more APC's with the AA rockets than I have aircraft.

I see this same problem, and I think there is an issue with the code. Plenty of times I have waited for flares to be dropped and re-lock on a helo only to see the missles fly right by them. One time a helo was even slowly flying towards me about 200 meters away and he dropped his flares, I then relocked and had a dead on shot, and he kept flying forward..but both missles, with a perfect lock, just wizzed right on by him and he then blew me up...c'mon???!! A helo flying straight at an AA installation doesn't get shot down with 2 stingers? That is a broken AA and that is bull crap!

Seraosha · 07-14-2005, 11:20 AM

On the subject of the stationary A.A. I'll have to plead ignorance, as they look like sandbag coffins to me.

But the Linebacker is another subject entirely. My stats on A.A. Vehicles is:
Air Defense 3h:30m52s Kills-127 Deaths-50. Not the greatest ratio, but I thought backing up the following comments up with some stats might help.

Vehicle A.A is a great way to reach out and touch the enemy, but there are a few things you need to keep in mind:

1. You are not in a tank
2. You can kill Infantry with ease
3. Keep moving
4. Find overhead cover
5. You can shoot 4 stingers, not just two.
6. Lead with the reticles while shooting the 25mm (little yellow X lets you know you are hitting)

I usually drive the Linebacker while an Engineer...good to hop out and repair when needed. And if you find a nifty spot to hide, throw out some mines to slowdown the dirve-bys. Get some overhead cover ASAP...on the maps that have A.A. vehicles, there is usually a hanger, garage, structure...something that throws a roof over your head. Play "Pop Goes The Weasel" from under cover...get out, get your lock, wait for the flares to drop, shoot two/four, get back under cover. On the Oil Field map (sry at work don't have the map names memorized Chinese vs USMC) you can get in this huge storage area with large doors on its north and south ends. You can go from door to door shooting helicopters, and they won't be able to see who is shooting them, much less get bombed by a passing jet...you can actually see enough out the hanger-doors to shoot from inside, but thats a good way to get tennel vision and get some c4 on your butt.

When out in the open with AA Vehicles, keep moving, get in among trees, and find elevation/cover from atleast one side. The jets are your worry, as they can deploy the retarded bombs and take you out quickly...but if you are facing the right direction when they do their drop, miss (hit trees mountainside) you can get lock and shoot 4 in quick succesion, and get a quick kill.

Anyway, I still think A.A needs to be infantry deployable as an unlocked kit, and I sure wish the stingers had a better hit/kill ratio, but all in all AA Vehicles are the way to go if you are a "Rotor-Head" hater (like me) and want to show the flying support/tank/CP capper what it's like to be touched with extreme prejudice.

Cpt.Destructo · 07-14-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CymBa

A lot of people have said recently that BF2 Anti-Air needs beefing up. Some say its completely useless against air and should be more accurate.
For the last couple days I've been taking time out to use the various forms of AA in the game including fixed AA and mobile AA.
While I agree that, for something supposedly this high-tech, they seem wholefully inaccurate, I have at times been able to shoot down helo's and very occasionally jets. I remember one game on Oman I manned the AA exclusively and I ended up with 30-40 kills off AA alone, downing BH's and Cobras with the ocassional F-35 for good measure. I would estimate my KILL rate was around 30-40% while my HIT rate was around 66%. Don't ask me my technique because I still haven't quite nailed that down yet. MOBILE AA tho is on a whole different level tho. Mobile AA is MEAN , my KILL rate for mobile AA is sometimes close to 60-70%! Man I love those machines.

As some of you might already know, I'm a hardcore chopper pilot myself so it has given me what I feel is a unique perspective on the whole affair. My overall view is that AA in the game is fine as it is. My MAIN reason for saying this is that , sure we'd all love to shoot down a jet or helo each time we aim for it, but I've figured out why AA is so inaccurate. If everytime someone on the ground pointed a SAM at us we would die then it would make no sense to fly at all. Especially in maps like Gulf of Oman where multiple sites can have a lock.

But I can tell you this, even with AA that inaccurate, we pilots still can't afford to ignore it. Once we hear that lock on sound we have to do SOMETHING, even if its just to drop flares and evade. However in a lot of cases that's enough. That klaxon blaring is telling us that SOMEONE is looking at us with a potentially big stick and there's a chance that it might hit us. I've found that 1 hit from a missile is usually enough to get the helo to head back to base, usually because the pilot knows the next one will kill him. So in this case the AA acts as a deterrant and modifies the behaviour of the pilot which is what us on the ground pounders really want anywayz.

When it comes to BH's being repaired.. I've found that 2 direct hits from AA one right after another is enought to kill them. However getting those consecutive hits isn't easy.

Mobile AA tho is a beast. Not only do u have twice as many missiles, the ability to reposition and actually STALK air so they have to spend a LARGE amount of time trying to find you but you also have a gun that can kill passengers (ie engineers) and finish them off if ur missiles are reloading. Any helo pilot will tell you its a PAIN flying in Kubra Dam when someones manning the mobile AA. You have a hard time finding them and they can lock onto u the minute u come over the dam. That damn Klaxon going off in ur ear is the most annoying thing and u can't really afford to ignore it because it WILL kill you.

In a recent game on Daqing Oilfields we were losing to the usual BH flag capping stuff. My teammate and I decided to go for 2 Mobile AA and we started to stalk those helo's. Nearly everytime I saw a BH it went down in flames. Same went for the Attack Helo. They had to change their tactics, sneak around a lot more but they still took huge losses. The Attack Helo even started to try and Cover the BH but we still shot them both down. It got to the point where I'd sometimes look at the USMC base and see both helo's on the pad doing nothing for extended periods. Because of our action we actually clawed our way back from a nearly 150 point deficit to win the game by 100+ tickets. My apologies to Apocalypse and his BH squad as well as Ludlow

In conclusion all I'm saying is that AA as it is in-game is fine. If it was any more accurate it'd take the joy out of flying and even if you don't kill ur target its still a very good deterrant. But with proper use it can change the course of a game. Oh, and MOBILE AA is VICIOUS.

YES!!!! Thank you for posting this..i'v ebeen telling people time and time again that AA is perfect how it is!
It's just that when people can't use it right..they blame it on the game and not themselves.

I love AA. It works fantastic. Mobile AA is the best..but the AA stationaries work just as great. That is if you wait for the chopper to release it's decoys early.

NEVER had a problem with AA.

Telorn · 07-14-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt.Destructo

I love AA. It works fantastic. Mobile AA is the best..but the AA stationaries work just as great. That is if you wait for the chopper to release it's decoys early.

NEVER had a problem with AA.

I do this every time...with a clear straight shot and they still miss. For stationary, that is. I think the stationary AA should have a machine gun similiar to the mobile AA platform...at least then your liable to do some damage as your AA distracts them and misses.

07-14-2005, 08:28 AM	#19 (permalink)
Stabmaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4	Re: Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. I enjoyed making bombing runs on you last night Cymba during a round on the Dam map.

07-14-2005, 08:31 AM	#20 (permalink)
Lagomorph Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Redmond, WA Age: 22 Posts: 277	Re: Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. The way much of the stuff in BF2 works is very unrealistic, AA missiles just being one big obvious one. However I think the way they work right now does fairly well as far as balance and gameplay. =) I'm likely to be be wrong about it since I'm not involved with our armed forces, but my general notion of how modern air combat works generally involves never actually seeing hostiles, just blips on fun little screens. ^^ - And that just wouldn't be all that fun in a game now would it...a little too much like being CO... ;P __________________ Combat is very simple, there is a first place and a second place. Second place is laying face down in the mud...sometimes, so is first place. [age-c1] [eng][air]

07-14-2005, 09:19 AM	#21 (permalink)
Buster Charlie Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 27 Posts: 20	Re: Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. I think having missles 'lead' the target may be too unforgiving for most pilots. I for one HATED the video showing the missile passing through the BH doors. Modern missiles, and some ordinance since WWII (mostly American) has something called a proximity fuse. Correct me if im wrong here. But short story is the warhead can tell if its within 'leathal' range of an object and it will detonate even if it has not made direct contact. I think the AA missiles should detonate within a certain range of an object. The trade off could be that they would also detonate within a certain range of ANY object (buildings, other aircraft) Maybe the missile's wouldn't 'arm' this untill it was within X meters of the targeted aircraft (to avoid the missile exploding right next to a sandbag by the launcher) Anyway, realisticaly this is all pointless because the chances of them implementing this into BF2 are zero.

07-14-2005, 09:42 AM	#22 (permalink)
TEMM Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 26 Posts: 207	Re: Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. I think the biggest issue with the AA missles, especially the ground launched variety, is the fact that you can fire at a blackhawk thats moving relitively slowly perpendicular to your position, and the missle will fly off and miss by a good margin. Its almost as if the missles dont even track the target at all some times, even with a good clean lock. I mean even a straight head on shot will miss! The only time ive ever been able to down anything is firing after they have passed so the missle goes up their tailpipe. While this is ok for jets in a dogfight, you are more likely going to be interested in downing that bomber thats about to drop a few tons of ordinance on your head in a few seconds in the ground based AA.

07-14-2005, 11:20 AM	#24 (permalink)
Seraosha Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 62	Re: Views on BF2 Anti-Air from a Pilot. On the subject of the stationary A.A. I'll have to plead ignorance, as they look like sandbag coffins to me. But the Linebacker is another subject entirely. My stats on A.A. Vehicles is: Air Defense 3h:30m52s Kills-127 Deaths-50. Not the greatest ratio, but I thought backing up the following comments up with some stats might help. Vehicle A.A is a great way to reach out and touch the enemy, but there are a few things you need to keep in mind: 1. You are not in a tank 2. You can kill Infantry with ease 3. Keep moving 4. Find overhead cover 5. You can shoot 4 stingers, not just two. 6. Lead with the reticles while shooting the 25mm (little yellow X lets you know you are hitting) I usually drive the Linebacker while an Engineer...good to hop out and repair when needed. And if you find a nifty spot to hide, throw out some mines to slowdown the dirve-bys. Get some overhead cover ASAP...on the maps that have A.A. vehicles, there is usually a hanger, garage, structure...something that throws a roof over your head. Play "Pop Goes The Weasel" from under cover...get out, get your lock, wait for the flares to drop, shoot two/four, get back under cover. On the Oil Field map (sry at work don't have the map names memorized Chinese vs USMC) you can get in this huge storage area with large doors on its north and south ends. You can go from door to door shooting helicopters, and they won't be able to see who is shooting them, much less get bombed by a passing jet...you can actually see enough out the hanger-doors to shoot from inside, but thats a good way to get tennel vision and get some c4 on your butt. When out in the open with AA Vehicles, keep moving, get in among trees, and find elevation/cover from atleast one side. The jets are your worry, as they can deploy the retarded bombs and take you out quickly...but if you are facing the right direction when they do their drop, miss (hit trees mountainside) you can get lock and shoot 4 in quick succesion, and get a quick kill. Anyway, I still think A.A needs to be infantry deployable as an unlocked kit, and I sure wish the stingers had a better hit/kill ratio, but all in all AA Vehicles are the way to go if you are a "Rotor-Head" hater (like me) and want to show the flying support/tank/CP capper what it's like to be touched with extreme prejudice. __________________

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