SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes - Page 2

icky · 08-22-2005, 09:03 PM

Departing from the hijacked thread to add a comment here...

I think the idea is good for incorporating air strikes into the game, and I will most certainly try to use it next time I am SL and I have a willing pilot in the air. I do believe that this has potential to really help squads. In fact, if it proves very effective, squads could drop their AT kits completely and rely on air support whenever they see a tank incoming. Especially those nagging tanks which sit right outside of your mine placements.

On the other hand (or the same hand?), I could still see it working fine via in-game SL-CO-Air system.

SL to CO: Squad 6 requesting air strike on armor to our south
CO to Air: Requesting air strike
Air to CO: Airstrike available
CO to Air: Target is armor south of Squad 6
Air to CO: ETA 10 seconds
CO to SL: Air strike ETA is 10 seconds, light up the target

It is a little more cumbersome, but it makes the whole system available to everyone more readily. I think the CO does have time to pass on such specific requests.

Overall, I believe the ground to air comms would add greatly to the fun, no matter how it is done. And if I can get you guys to take out attack choppers, it would be HUGE!

StrikeFear · 08-22-2005, 09:38 PM

The problem with relaying thru the CO is that it JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN.
I don't know why. And I don't know for sure that this will be any different. I have my hunches, but they're not worth elaborating on. But the fact is that no matter what anyone claims, the idea of requesting thru CO doesn't happen.
Theorize all you want. It's broke.

08-25-2005, 01:37 PM

well it worked when I was CO...

but only then.

I did this procedure:
(asuming fighter-bomber has his own squad, number 1)
SL5: "This is 5, enemy infantry spotted, requesting air-strike"
CO: "Roger 5, air-strike, mark your target."
SL5: [marks enemy position by "requesting artillery strike"]
CO: [zooms in to the request. denies it, but now he knows exactly where to place air-strike. presses "1", then clicks "attack" on the desired spot.]
SL1 (air): [hears order for attack. presses pageup or pagedown, depends of his situation]saying "Affirmative"
CO: "5, air-strike in 5-10sec (or "negative on air-strike")

The excellent thing about it SL can get a air-strike right where he needs it (of course, if it's easy to explain, like "enemy tank on the southern bridge" than fake-request for artillery strike is not necessary). Bomber gets a very precise info on attack and he can even see it in 3D battlefield, like a knife-mark! All he has to do is to line his nose to the knife and bomb somone he can't even see.
When I was CO, I always informed the pilot about the status of the target after bombs being dropped (they like that).

First look at this procedure can be a little bit confusing, but it's actually pretty simple and easy to use, and it's very useful. Just try it and you'll see. Pilots can enjoy flying, and when they're needed, it's not in a form of shady request, but a clear target/waypoint they can't miss.
(of course, if it's a tank, than knife-mark is used as a waypoint, not a target. Also, CO can zoom in and move knife-mark if he thinks it's necessary).

StrikeFear · 08-25-2005, 01:54 PM

I hear ya. And I appreciate your enthusiasm. But there are several flaws to this idea, most of which have been covered in prior posts in different areas. However, to summarize:

1. Generally, don't send air strikes against infantry. Jets kill other stuff better, and have better things to do.
2. If an airstrike is necessary, your method is more complicated, takes longer, involves more than the necessary number of players, and much too much interaction by the CO.
3. If the target is a vehicle, the jets don't need a waypoint, just a location and target type. They can find it just fine. (Unlike infantry)
4. Your method won't work for helos. The one I propose puts a spotter in touch with the jets and can relay the helo's movement. The CO could do that, too - but would take him away from his other duties.
5. The air squad replying with either "Yes" or "No" is not enough information. What about ETA?
6. Having to go thru the CO makes spotter-jet dialogue impossible. What if the jet couldn't find the target? What if the target was destroyed before the airstrike arrived? What if the target was missed? Is it moving? Is airstrike still required? What's the ETA on the second pass?

08-25-2005, 03:58 PM

first of all thanx strikefear for listening

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrikeFear

1. Generally, don't send air strikes against infantry. Jets kill other stuff better, and have better things to do.

It was an example. I used infantry as a target, cos it's the hardest target for a plane. Sure it's not high on the list of priorities.

Quote:

2. If an airstrike is necessary, your method is more complicated, takes longer, involves more than the necessary number of players, and much too much interaction by the CO.

Yes, but I would use term "advanced". It takes time to master, but I think in a good, trained team it can be done in a mater of seconds... now I'm not saying it's the right procedure, of course it can be at least twice more efficient.

Quote:

3. If the target is a vehicle, the jets don't need a waypoint, just a location and target type. They can find it just fine. (Unlike infantry)

True... (but it would be nice to have a waypoint thou...)

Quote:

4. Your method won't work for helos. The one I propose puts a spotter in touch with the jets and can relay the helo's movement. The CO could do that, too - but would take him away from his other duties.

yes... if I would want to be a CO, it would be a challenge for me to do things like that real fast... well, it's what I imagine the CO's job is all about.

Quote:

5. The air squad replying with either "Yes" or "No" is not enough information. What about ETA?

If he says yes, it's something like "I'm on my way", meaning air-strike is just a seconds away.

Quote:

6. Having to go thru the CO makes spotter-jet dialogue impossible. What if the jet couldn't find the target? What if the target was destroyed before the airstrike arrived? What if the target was missed? Is it moving? Is airstrike still required? What's the ETA on the second pass?

I'm aware of these flaws... I'm not saying it's the most efficient way right now - but, if I would make some kinda boot camp and train people for a pure elite team - I would say "generaly this is what you would need to master. It's gonna be frustrating in the beginning, but when you learn this skill through teamwork, you will see how efficient it can be."

**Strag** · 08-25-2005, 04:07 PM

Without getting into the whole debate about whether the CO should coordinate airstrikes or let the SLs handle it.....I saw Strike's system in action the other night and thought it was awesome. It was great having reliable air support against armor, and I really liked how quickly and effectively it worked. For me, it took the level of play up another notch. It was FUN.

StrikeFear · 08-25-2005, 04:15 PM

The point I'm making, Mare, is that in the absence of any other system, yours would be the best possible.
However, what the 531st has come up with, and demonstrated a few times now is superior to your suggestion in every way except providing a waypoint to the target.
Since that's not very helpful (targets move), then overall, the direct SL <-> Jets system is better.

MeanDrLily · 08-25-2005, 04:39 PM

Question about calling for an airstrike:

Let's say I'm a squad leader or a 3-man squad, and I've been instructed to take a flag. It's currently being defended by a larger squad, mostly infantry. I'd like bombers to come in and carpet the area, allowing my smaller squad to clear the area and take the flag.

How would this be most effectively translated to the pilots, using the example protocol?

Quote:

SL2: Squad 2 requesting air strike.
531: Airstrike available, Squad 2.
SL2: Tank, northeast of our position.
531: Airstrike ETA 20 seconds.
SL2: Airstrike positive.

Thanks!

Ragged · 08-25-2005, 04:41 PM

X-post from a post I made in the AAR section. Thought it would be appropriate here too.

We have begun to reguarly integrate practice with the 531 into our 42nd practice nights. I can vouch for it's effectiveness. I strongly encourage other outfits to try to get the 531 involved, if only for a night to get the protocols worked out and keybindings squared away. Coodinated air strikes could be the difference between keeping a CP and losing it.

The only problem I could possibly see is folks becoming too overdependent on them and the whisper chatter to the 531 becoming a negative factor.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanDrLily

Question about calling for an airstrike:

Let's say I'm a squad leader or a 3-man squad, and I've been instructed to take a flag. It's currently being defended by a larger squad, mostly infantry. I'd like bombers to come in and carpet the area, allowing my smaller squad to clear the area and take the flag.

How would this be most effectively translated to the pilots, using the example protocol?
Thanks!

Yes, that's how it works. Note that after you get an airstrike inbound confirmation, you should try to keep the target "lit" or spotted for the pilot. You should probably prioritize the targets too so that you are calling for a strike on an AA vehicle first just to make an additional airstrike easier. SF says it's not necessary, but he ended up taking a couple missiles in the tailpipe last night when I accidentally called for an airstrike on a tank with AA near.

StrikeFear · 08-25-2005, 04:49 PM

SL2: Squad 2 requesting air strike.
531: Airstrike available, Squad 2.
SL2: Infantry along south wall of flag to our north
531: Airstrike ETA 20 seconds.
SL2: Airstrike positive.

Make it as brief and informative as possible. Keep in mind that this will be a low-priority target. We will acccept other requests over this one. We will likely not make 2 passes, so be clear about their location.
If there is no bomber on the map you're on, don't expect very good results unless the infantry are pathetically close together (fighters don't saturate-bomb very well)

StrikeFear · 08-25-2005, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragged

You should probably prioritize the targets too so that you are calling for a strike on an AA vehicle first just to make an additional airstrike easier. SF says it's not necessary, but he ended up taking a couple missiles in the tailpipe last night when I accidentally called for an airstrike on a tank with AA near.

Heh.

That was just a mistake just because we were demonstrating and exercising, rather than engaging in combat.

But this is a very important point. We DON'T want you guys calling in air strikes for anything that's not directly engaging you or that is blocking your objective. So, for example, don't call in strikes on stuff you think WE want taken out. If you want the tank flattened, call in the tank.

If there is an enemy mobile AA nearby, we'll deal with it one way or another, if necessary taking it out first and increasing your ETA to air strike on the tank.

Don't confuse the issue by trying to manage more than your view of the battlefield.
Now if that AA is giving you trouble as well, feel free to call an airstrike on it.

Ragged · 08-25-2005, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrikeFear

Don't confuse the issue by trying to manage more than your view of the battlefield.
Now if that AA is giving you trouble as well, feel free to call an airstrike on it.

Yeah, but in that case both the AA and the tank were in close proximity and in our combat zone. It woulda made more sense for me to call that one first IMO since they were both a threat. That's what I was trying to say, I just poorly articulated it.

**nox** · 08-25-2005, 08:59 PM

i think having a designated squad member to call in air strikes at the SL's request could work more efficiently than having the SL do it. i know the few times ive been SL its hard enough to hear squad members over the CO or vice versa.

icky · 08-25-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nox

i think having a designated squad member to call in air strikes at the SL's request could work more efficiently than having the SL do it. i know the few times ive been SL its hard enough to hear squad members over the CO or vice versa.

The only problem there is that they don't appear as a big number on the map. If they are close to the SL, then yes, it would be a great idea. I do agree that the SL can get quite busy. I'll have to test out volunteering as designated air strike calling dude.

StrikeFear · 08-30-2005, 01:54 AM

Man, this is fantastic. The stuff got posted as TG BF2 SOP.

http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=58969

And I get a free bump, just mentioning it.

08-22-2005, 09:03 PM	#16 (permalink)
icky Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ottawa Valley Posts: 6,154	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes Departing from the hijacked thread to add a comment here... I think the idea is good for incorporating air strikes into the game, and I will most certainly try to use it next time I am SL and I have a willing pilot in the air. I do believe that this has potential to really help squads. In fact, if it proves very effective, squads could drop their AT kits completely and rely on air support whenever they see a tank incoming. Especially those nagging tanks which sit right outside of your mine placements. On the other hand (or the same hand?), I could still see it working fine via in-game SL-CO-Air system. SL to CO: Squad 6 requesting air strike on armor to our south CO to Air: Requesting air strike Air to CO: Airstrike available CO to Air: Target is armor south of Squad 6 Air to CO: ETA 10 seconds CO to SL: Air strike ETA is 10 seconds, light up the target It is a little more cumbersome, but it makes the whole system available to everyone more readily. I think the CO does have time to pass on such specific requests. Overall, I believe the ground to air comms would add greatly to the fun, no matter how it is done. And if I can get you guys to take out attack choppers, it would be HUGE!

08-22-2005, 09:38 PM	#17 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 1,877	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes The problem with relaying thru the CO is that it JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. I don't know why. And I don't know for sure that this will be any different. I have my hunches, but they're not worth elaborating on. But the fact is that no matter what anyone claims, the idea of requesting thru CO doesn't happen. Theorize all you want. It's broke. __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

08-25-2005, 01:37 PM	#18 (permalink)
mare_cccp Guest Posts: n/a	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes well it worked when I was CO... but only then. I did this procedure: (asuming fighter-bomber has his own squad, number 1) SL5: "This is 5, enemy infantry spotted, requesting air-strike" CO: "Roger 5, air-strike, mark your target." SL5: [marks enemy position by "requesting artillery strike"] CO: [zooms in to the request. denies it, but now he knows exactly where to place air-strike. presses "1", then clicks "attack" on the desired spot.] SL1 (air): [hears order for attack. presses pageup or pagedown, depends of his situation]saying "Affirmative" CO: "5, air-strike in 5-10sec (or "negative on air-strike") The excellent thing about it SL can get a air-strike right where he needs it (of course, if it's easy to explain, like "enemy tank on the southern bridge" than fake-request for artillery strike is not necessary). Bomber gets a very precise info on attack and he can even see it in 3D battlefield, like a knife-mark! All he has to do is to line his nose to the knife and bomb somone he can't even see. When I was CO, I always informed the pilot about the status of the target after bombs being dropped (they like that). First look at this procedure can be a little bit confusing, but it's actually pretty simple and easy to use, and it's very useful. Just try it and you'll see. Pilots can enjoy flying, and when they're needed, it's not in a form of shady request, but a clear target/waypoint they can't miss. (of course, if it's a tank, than knife-mark is used as a waypoint, not a target. Also, CO can zoom in and move knife-mark if he thinks it's necessary).

08-25-2005, 01:54 PM	#19 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 1,877	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes I hear ya. And I appreciate your enthusiasm. But there are several flaws to this idea, most of which have been covered in prior posts in different areas. However, to summarize: 1. Generally, don't send air strikes against infantry. Jets kill other stuff better, and have better things to do. 2. If an airstrike is necessary, your method is more complicated, takes longer, involves more than the necessary number of players, and much too much interaction by the CO. 3. If the target is a vehicle, the jets don't need a waypoint, just a location and target type. They can find it just fine. (Unlike infantry) 4. Your method won't work for helos. The one I propose puts a spotter in touch with the jets and can relay the helo's movement. The CO could do that, too - but would take him away from his other duties. 5. The air squad replying with either "Yes" or "No" is not enough information. What about ETA? 6. Having to go thru the CO makes spotter-jet dialogue impossible. What if the jet couldn't find the target? What if the target was destroyed before the airstrike arrived? What if the target was missed? Is it moving? Is airstrike still required? What's the ETA on the second pass? __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

08-25-2005, 04:07 PM	#21 (permalink)
Strag Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Columbus, OH, USA Age: 34 Posts: 5,004	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes Without getting into the whole debate about whether the CO should coordinate airstrikes or let the SLs handle it.....I saw Strike's system in action the other night and thought it was awesome. It was great having reliable air support against armor, and I really liked how quickly and effectively it worked. For me, it took the level of play up another notch. It was FUN.

08-25-2005, 04:15 PM	#22 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 1,877	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes The point I'm making, Mare, is that in the absence of any other system, yours would be the best possible. However, what the 531st has come up with, and demonstrated a few times now is superior to your suggestion in every way except providing a waypoint to the target. Since that's not very helpful (targets move), then overall, the direct SL <-> Jets system is better. __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

08-25-2005, 04:49 PM	#25 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 1,877	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes SL2: Squad 2 requesting air strike. 531: Airstrike available, Squad 2. SL2: Infantry along south wall of flag to our north 531: Airstrike ETA 20 seconds. SL2: Airstrike positive. Make it as brief and informative as possible. Keep in mind that this will be a low-priority target. We will acccept other requests over this one. We will likely not make 2 passes, so be clear about their location. If there is no bomber on the map you're on, don't expect very good results unless the infantry are pathetically close together (fighters don't saturate-bomb very well) __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

08-25-2005, 08:59 PM	#28 (permalink)
nox Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Age: 27 Posts: 75	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes i think having a designated squad member to call in air strikes at the SL's request could work more efficiently than having the SL do it. i know the few times ive been SL its hard enough to hear squad members over the CO or vice versa. __________________ TG-22nd\|Nox

08-30-2005, 01:54 AM	#30 (permalink)
StrikeFear Join Date: May 2003 Location: Austin, TX Age: 39 Posts: 1,877	Re: SLs, Pilots, get set up to call in Air Strikes Man, this is fantastic. The stuff got posted as TG BF2 SOP. http://www.tacticalgamer.com/showthread.php?t=58969 And I get a free bump, just mentioning it. __________________ "You live and learn. Or you don't live long." - Lazarus Long

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