Bommando

I post this with great reservation.

As we all know, there is a distinct reason we all play at TG. We like to play our games with like-minded players in a near-simulation environment (within reason). This involves adhering to certain rules to enhance and maintain our style of play.

So, what are we to do when playing external teams who aren't like-minded?

This has never come up before because we were able to wipe the floor with our opponents to date without "gaming the game". Our recent loss to MA has made it quite clear to us that when presented with a foe near equal to us in skill, we suffer greatly when we refuse ourselves all the "liberties" of the gaming engine.

I am talking specifically about such things as Squad Leader switching and Jet Insertion as examples.

What I want to establish is this:

• Do we refuse to play opponents who don't play contiguously with our style?
• Do we add these "tactics" to our repertoire against other teams, despite our distaste for them?
• Do we plug away with our pride and just accept that we are at a severe disadvantage?

HellRazor61

I feel as tho we should not change our playstyle. Moreover, if other groups have to use exploits and what not or game the game to beat us then so be it. However, I feel that we will walk out of the game with our heads held high knowing we did not stoop to their level just so we could win! TG in my oppinion is an ideal not just a community, a way to make the game not quite so arcade like and more simulation. Just my 2 pennies!

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Mateo

We should never, ever, deviate from our way of playing. If we get owned, then it will only because we did not execute as a team.

ABRA

I like to play TG style. I think we all do. I see no need to play that other game played on the BF2 engine that I do not enjoy. I vote that we only play TG-styled teams however few and far between they may be.

That being said I think there's room here for the more internal TG squad scrimming, a no hold's barred CPL-style TG team, and everything in between.

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perry

If certain actions go against the TG Primer and our SOP's, in spirit or in letter, then we should not be performing said actions during a scrimmage when we are representing our community against another. Performing those actions does not show what TG is about. I think this paragraph from the Primer should make the answer fairly obvious:

Bommando

I simply don't agree with this. I don't mind losing to a tactically superior foe, but I do not like losing when I am knowingly handicapped.

I voted that we match them only because if we are to play external teams, we cannot ask them to play us on our terms. On the other hand, I won't tolerate having my ass handed to me when I have untapped resources at my disposal. It's like being happy that a Dodge Viper beat your billy cart in a street drag. Because you're a billy cart enthusiast, you feel proud that you were a "also-ran". Bear in mind that I am not comparing TG to a billy cart, I am just saying that when we are within our rights to use a Dodge Viper, it might be pertinent to use one or get owned.

I love TG-style play and am loathe to play any other way. I am talking about rare situations where we simply have no choice given the circumstances.

If we don't adopt these tactics, then we better work out a counter fast, because we'll get chewed up, I guarantee it. I am at a loss as to how we should combat some of these strategies at the moment and against an equally skilled foe, we are already in trouble from the get-go.

Jusb

in a perfect TG world this would be possible because there would be plenty of large communities that play the way we do. But this obviously isnt the case. All of us TG guys (and girls) wouldnt, well, be just here with TG if it was. So unless we plan to scrimmage 8v8 or 16v16 all the time or TG in house we wont be getting very far with campaigns.

There's always the chance we could get teams to play by our rules on our server but again thats in a perfect world. Plus a lot of the "tactics" that "game the game" arent really hardwritten rules of TG anyway. Many fall in the realm of the gentlemans contract - which several regular TGers refuse to sign.

While this is a possibility, I chose option 3 instead. Sure we can employ all kinds of crazy ass tactics to get the W but doesnt that defeat the purpose of why most of us here play the game? Yeah, i'm sure there are some borderline tactics we could employ - such as jet fighter-SL spawn-15 sec cap a flag- but what about everything else? Where do we draw the line? And if we draw too much of a line arent we still at a disadvantage to our opponent if we dont go all the way?

So thats why i say option three:

Sure we may be at a disadvantage and the win mongers among us (not a bad thing cause every team needs some to be successful) might be miserable, but think about why we are all here. For most of us its to play the game the "right way" and to play it as a strong team based community. Does losing suck. Sure does...

But think about that last MA game on Zatar. How rewarding was that win? I'd venture to say the most rewarding of any round of any map scrimmage or non that we've played since release. We won that game with our gameplay, playing our "game". We can still win, maybe not as much as we're all used to.

We'll have to work harder as a team but the wins are still there if we want them bad enough.

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Wulfyn

Personally I can only add to this thread by refering to something that one of us said after the first scrim where we beat HOC.

"Beaten by a team that doesn't even bunny-hop".


I think we should adjust our tactics to be AWARE of what they might do, but i do not think we should adjust to match their style. I firmly believe that focusing upon our play style is the most advantageous way to play, and will overcome all the tricks of other teams. Maybe I'm naive tho

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perry

You're right, we do not have a choice. We simply do not allow ourselves to exploit the game engine for the sake of winning. Do you consider standing up for your morals as a handicap?

This will what will seperate us from the other communities - our ability to adapt and overcome. Now that we know what we're up against, we will have to develop an effective counter against it. This is what makes us Tactical Gamers.

I did not know what all TG was about when I first joined, did not understand everything when I paid up, and probably still don't. But, as the days pass, I appreciate why we're all here more and more. I'd hate to see that go away in the name of winning.

marstein

I think it is no fun when you have to trick the system, abuse bugs and the like. Bunnyhopping, SL switching take the fun out. I want to concentrate on playing and not on working the system. We need to set up some rules that we don't play by, but they're okay and then some that are dealbreakers. We have to draw a line. So every new way of hacking the game, we have to examine what it does to our community: does it improve our enjoyment of the game or not?

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HellRazor61

Take for instance the SL jet thing! Last night im sure that is what they did to cap the center island so fast! Counter on maps such as this where the center island is important due to attack helo and what not, send our jets on bombing missions over it until our troops arrive we have some darn good pilots in TG and most have good precision with their bombs! Could be a way to combat this I feel one can always find a solution if you just look hard enough.
Just my 2 pennies

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Mateo

We knowingly handicap ourselves every scrim, knowing that the exploits of the game are many and will be deployed against us by our competition.

Our record speaks for itself.

Then the correct course of action is to take these expolits, disect them, and use our collective tactical skill to come up with viable counters, don't you think?

marstein

So is there a thread "how to deal with bunnyhoppers"? A sticky for how to deal with counterproductive techniques would be good. Any experts?

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Sabre Six

Certainly tough questions and perhaps no correct answers.

I agree with Bom on the billy cart example. It is very hard to swallow...losing when handicapped that is.

I vehemently don't want to stoop to those tactics though. If we determine that we will...then in order to do it effectively in a scrim we will have to practice it somewhere else. Where will that be...on our regular servers where we are trying to set an example.

I also feel as though stooping would be inherently hypocritical...though I can see were others would disagree. I would prefer to not play external teams that we know or deem to be to different from us.

What would be the point: yeah we win...ahh but we played like a bunch of 10 year olds. Not interested...thanks, but no thanks.

Respectfully,

Allen

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P8riot

I feel it is unnecessary to compromise the TG style of game play from what it already is. Others may feel it improves their chances of winning a scrim - but does it really enhance their game playing experience?

That being said, I also believe that it could be possible for the CO to command relative to the situation based on the opposing forces tactics. If UCB vehicle theft is employed by the opposition and our CO knows it - that could open up the option for the CO to specifically request a nearby squad snatch UCB vehicles from the opposition. Maybe - maybe not.. can I be more middle of the road - probably.. but I won't.

If I want a group of players with different rules - I'll hook up with the MA's or TAW or someone else. This is probably a result of my intent to play for fun.. and win trying. Make sense?

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