Fracture in the TG community...

[experiment626]

I do not post often, but I do try and keep up with all the threads and discussions especially with BF2. I am not sure if anyone else is picking up on it or not, but here goes...
I've been playing exclusively on TG for almost a year now. I got lucky and got in a good game with a bunch of the "old timers" here. I thought it was great, they were dead set against all the things that i hated on the public servers; bunyhopping, not joining a squad, not fllowing orders etc. Every buddy was glad to have me in a squad, noone bitched when you screwed up, and there were a lot of people I looked up to in the game just because of their unbelievable skill!! I admitedly neglected the forums, but that was because of my unfamiliarity with "Forums and threads".
Around December I noticed them and started contributing to them.
I have noticed there are some people who take this game very, very seriously and want to adhere to the "TG PRIMER" as a commandment. They go to great lengths to form tatical doctrine and lay out fire lanes and such, more power too them. I am not critizing them. I've seen people out there who treat this as a fun place to game on a Friday night, meet up with some friends adhere to the rules, but don't take the "military thing" too far, smokers and jokers...great, have a good time. There are those who like TACMOD and those who don't. THose who like boosters and those who don't. Fine we all have diferences...why can't you just pick the ones you like and play on them?
It seems all i hear now are arguments for this or that, knit picking of definitions, CRITIZING of one group or another, and very borderline, heated arguments! Absolute refusals to play this or that unless admin DOES this or that! Ultimatums...man i do not know what to think anymore!!??!

I started to play here because it was fun, and a great bunch of guys(and girls!) I never got to techical with the game, because i had enough of the "REAL" thing in reallife! If i am not adhering to a "standard" of play that TGers who have been here over a year are constantly talking about, then i apologize from the bottom of my heart. I did not mean to come in here and "dilute" your prefered style of game. I honestly thought i was playing the way you guys wanted a new guy to play, if I was not, I wish someone would have told me! I have brought several "new" supporting members with me who only play on this server. They agreed with me that this was an awsome place to "PLAY"!!!! EMPHASIS on PLAY!!

This constant bickering and bitterness is really getting to me and i know it has to be making an impression on the "newest" members! I think it has spilled over to the servers and even into scrims. I don't catch everything that comes across "typed" or voiced in game but I have caught a few things which are just continued arguments from the forums.

I know i probably seem like I'm ranting and all over the place. It just bothers me greatly that TG people whom i looked up to, and tried to imitate. People who set examples for the new guys, are self destructing the best thing I've come across out there. I would love to help fix the problem, but i can't seem to nail down where the problem lies. If this community goes away, i for one will greatly miss it. I think i better shut up now.

[Drizzid]

The community isn't going anywhere to start with Experiment. The BF2 community is at a crossroads right now and everyone here is very passionate about TG and their own enjoyment of the game. It's very difficult, in fact impossible to please everyone all of the time and we want our TG time the way we want it.

As for you lowering the standard of play I don't think anyone here would or has said that (other than you joining the 33rd ) but that is a different story in itself.

It's just growing pains that's all and any borderline argument you might read always ends with the utmost in respect for the fellow TGer. I know because I have been in a few and they are definitely heated but always respectful of the others views and that is what TG is built upon.

[Mateo]

You know, this happens all the time here, across all sorts of games. There are always two distinct groups here: those that are hardcore simmers (a vocal but definite miniority) and those who feel there is a middle ground between the simmers and the chaos that pervades public servers.

Tactical Gamer is broad enough to appeal to both types of gamers. For BF2, we have Tactical Mod, which appeals to the SIM grognards, and the vanilla and booster pack nights for the rest of us.

If you think that standards are slipping, well, I can't see how. It's our standards of play that make this such a great place to play to begin with.

To be sure, over time, our understanding of a new title changes, and people start to call for more and more rules. Generally, this is good, because it reinforces the intent and direction of our community, and contributes to the cohesion of us as a unit.

Over time, it can get out of hand, with players thinking that their way is the only way to play the game, or that there is only one definition of gameplay under the aegis of Tactical Gamer. That is incorrect. We cater to those that want teamwork, maturity, and respect from their fellow gamers and are willing to give the same-but really, the rules are simply there to set minimal ground rules for your participation.

If there are players that are griefing, criticizing, or otherwise acting immaturely, then remedies are at hand for that: an admin can take a player aside and tell them to cool it, among other administrative options. Exercise your right to call an admin.

We all need to be reminded from time to time that these are, in fact, games-we die, we respawn, we get back in the fight, which is the most unrealistic thing of all. Perhaps a reread of the primer and a little maturity will create a better gaming environment for all.

[P8riot]

I hear ya ex626.

TG is a community built on diversity and diversity brings many views to the community. And what you (and I) have seen so far is but a snapshot in time in the life of the evolving TG community. There are many differences in opinion but I believe the underlying credo of TG is to play the game the way it was meant to be played. Now, a statement like that is pretty open to variations in interpretation, from the strict to the loose, and it will always be that way. Because it is that way, and with the exceptional guidance that the administration has exhibited over my time here - we are presented with something that rides somewhere in the middle of everyones wants and expectations.

One way that TG deals with differing opinions on how the games are played is with In-House Squads. The diversity of IHS's here all have their own personality.. I've 'visited' with a LOT of them in my months (nearly a year?!) here and believe the members are a direct reflection of the personalities that make them up. It would be boring otherwise!

The bottom line is that we all respect each other. Others that continually fall short of being respectful are dealt with or they fade away.. new and old players alike. Don't get caught up in the stuff that isn't important to you.. let others that feel it is important to them work it out.. play the game your way, respect the TG conduct, obey your SL or CO, and have FUN.

I hope some of that made sense.. I'm a little brain fried. It's also been while since I've spoken up on anything to any hefty extent, but your concerns are understood by me and I hope what I had to say lends some degree of reassurance or confidence to you.. ^^^^ What Drizzid said - TG isn't going away.

[Acid]

I can already tell this is going to become a heated argument.

The BF2 community is not "split," we all post in the same place and are in the same squads together, just some have diffrent views of what pleases them in a game. Like Mateo said, Simmers and tactical gamers. We all have our disagreements sometimes, but at the end of the day we are still one united TG, booster packs, TacMod or Vanilla.

[Backlash-7]

You guys have got X all wrong. He's just venting at the fact that those of us he brought to the TG server and to BF2 in general are now so far ahead of him with regards to skills and ability. He's just mad that we pwn him on a regular basis. I think it has something to do with old soldiers never dying just sort of fading away.

On a more logical (therefore true) note. I do agree with you X but with a subtle twist. I don't mind the bickering in the forums since that's what a discussion forum is for. I do however take offense to people getting "in-game" and complaining about forum topics. It sort of reminds me of the old pencil and paper days of D&D (remember those?) when folks would bring real world dislike of someone to the table. Man that would ruin a game night in a hurry and sometimes it happens here.

Mateo, this is not a personnal attack, I HATE to call an admin if there is a problem. I greatly prefer to talk to the person in game and "guide" them along the correct path. If that fails then I tell the SL that I'm changing squads due to conflict of interests. Or if I'm the SL I ask the offending member to leave and read the TG Primer before returning. I don't want to lose a possible supporting member because they got corrected by an admin, you know how most folks react to being singled out for "having fun". I know the system works because I'm still here. Several squad members have taken me off to the side, even during a battle, and helped me understand that some of the things I was doing were borderlined no-no's. If they had just called an admin and had me pulled from the game to get "corrected" then I would probably be a punk pubbie or the game would be sitting on the shelf. Just my opinion of course.

Listen folks. When it's all said and done this is still a game. Don't take it too seriously. Don't get hacked off because someone isn't as hard core as you are. The bottom line is this....


Log in, join squad, pick kit, spawn and have a damn good time. That's what I do and it works.

[Sumluv59]

Originally Posted by experiment626

I have brought several "new" supporting members with me who only play on this server. They agreed with me that this was an awesome place to "PLAY"!!!! EMPHASIS on PLAY!!

I agree. I’ve heard things just recently while playing that made me bite my lip. I feel bad for the new members who don’t know the TG way. Especially when they get scolded in game by some TG SL’s. It takes the FUN out of the PLAY. Please, berate your own in-house squads not unaffiliated members. Try to teach not preach.

As for the forums. Guys and girls, TG is an oasis in an abnormally unfriendly environment. I mod another gaming website which I won’t mention here. I honestly can’t believe some of the threads I’ve read. Just nasty. I had hoped to introduce some of those members here. After giving it some time I really wouldn’t want our Admins to wear out their “BAN” buttons. TG disagreements are always respectful and it is very refreshing.

[Tempus]

Actually, I think this fracture that you refer to is largely behind us. There was some drama a week or two ago (it's summer, this is normal) about the whole TacMod vs. Regular vs. Primer stuff, but we all talked it out, hugged, and got back to doing what we love -- playing BF2 together, with our friends here.

[Beatnik]

I agree with Tempus. The core of the issue had a few different perspectives on what all participants saw as being the best thing for BF2 on TG. We've discussed it and moved on, and had some good games this week playing both styles. And we have more Tac Mod goodness tonight. Almost 50 people at 8:30 EDT.

[Pokerface]

I have personally hugged Tempus no less than eighteen times this past week alone. I tried to hug JMJ, but he hissed and raised his hackles.

[Buckets]

I think we could pretty much solve the issues everyone is aving with tac-mod VS. vanilla by converting server one to "all Inishail Forest, all the time."

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by Pokerface

I have personally hugged Tempus no less than eighteen times this past week alone. I tried to hug JMJ, but he hissed and raised his hackles.

Just because you put on a dress doesn't mean I will find you attractive

[Mateo]

Backlash, I think that experiment, if I read his post correctly, is talking about members of existing in house squads and others that see themselves as experts in Tactical Gamer style gameplay sniping and criticizing players for things that they think are against the rules. I think that is quite different from the situation than you outline.

Personally, I love nights were I don't have to come in to some server and have to referee some finer point of rules for a game I admin.

You would be surprised how rules tend to "make themselves up" over time, at least in the minds of players that frequent the servers every night.

Professional Counterstrike, for example, is a PHILOSOPHY of how to play the game, not a set of etched in stone rules, yet every night I hear and see "that's against the rules" when some team executes a brilliant tactical move that catches them off guard.

Where do these rules come from? Well, people get surprised by someone else's creativity or skill, and think "that's not by the book!" The next time I come on, I find a whole set of rules that are pure misinformation espoused by players that frequent the server because that's the way they thnk the game should be played, that is the way they interpret the rules, because that is the way that slants the game in their favor.

I'm not going to hamstring a team or players that is playing by the rules and spirit of the rules just because you got your ass kicked.

Where admins come in, then, are to take players aside that think they have all the answers and pointing out that their conduct does not paint them as mature individuals, nor does it do a service for the community as a whole. You can, in fact, poison the well with negativity and criticism.

My point, ever since I have been with Tactical Gamers, is simple: mature people teach others, not belittle them. Anyone that thinks that running around and criticizing people is part of the solution is really part of the problem.

Edited: Spellink.

[matt_g_geier]

You know what, this is a long post. I'm not complaining. Hopefully people will understand. And hey, if nothing else, I'll have record for the longests posts on TG. When Vulcher speaks, it's in long tounges.



I personally think things are put down quickly, squashed. Not in a bad way. All I see around here is encouragement. Hey, I mean c-mon, we all know Santa is a fricken freak! but .. we still play with Santa.

I'm a huge advocate of TG. I write about them, the community, the people. I agree with many of the points here, but I'm mellow about it all the time. Not because I'm affraid to say anything, just because I like the community, and I talk highly about it to all my friends. I am true TG, the way it was meant to be played. The TG Primer, I could make the suggestion to read it, along with others. I figure we, meaning none, of us can make everyone and just anyone happy, even if it is words on i-paper (Internet- Paper).

I sometimes see critizm, however, I get nothing of encouragement and support from the TG family and the community as a whole. When I play TG it's the way I've learned. I do stupid stuff somtimes, and it's either laughed off.. as a group. Or, it's silented as one, including myself.

Now, I havn't been around TG much, keeping in mind I have 212, well, now it's 213, and I've been here since April. I stopped playing public servers. Now, recently, I've been back to just TG, the server's getting full and the laggy ness is getting more, but I'm not complaining. I love this game. I'm still a huge candidate of encouragment around here. I'm a contender just as much as one of the next TG players are.

I've signed up a friend of mine recently. It's something that I'm proud of. They complain sometimes, but I more take it as a suggestion. For instance, Special Forces (SF). I personally think we need our own server for it, I don't see enough of it. I want to play more of it. Hell, I would even host it myself if I could give it the TG playing experience. But if I had a server, that was so elite as the one TG has (hey, I'm sure their doing their best), it would make everyones gaming 10 times better, it would have a "referral only" type of password going on, and not just anyone would be able to find it out easily. But, it's not reality. So, I still play here.

I'm such an advocate that I dissagree with the fact that Tac Mod doesn't have any TG graphics inside of it. So, I'm taking it upon myself and my team members to fix that. Now, granted, nothing around here is ever official, however, I expect something to happen. I'm working on it. That's partly why I've not been around the forums. That's all I need to say.

I could almost be ocused of being an employee of TG, however, it's not a company, although it could be. I don't have that kind of $$. TG is tight, I can't lie about that. I'm delighted to play with everyone here. So now I'm going to stop being cheesy.

I say to TG, I say to us, play on as one, play the game of BF2, kick your opponents rear, and pray that they don't kick yours back. Cuz when you play BF2 around here, It's the TG way!

Just my $0.02

[BHack]

The conflict is more with the game. Read the TG primer carefully, the part about simulation - then go play BF2. I'm an advocate that a game should be played the way it was intended to be played by the developers. I think the simulation part of the primer creates an extremely difficult and ogrish grey area in this game. You either play laid back to have fun, play competitvely using the devices and constructs of the game world (matrix?), or you play it as a simulation. The latter being the way you are technically supposed to play on a TG server.

You get these three, I think, opposing, viewpoints into the server together and you start hearing words like "cheap", "lame", "unsubordinate", "lone wolf", "run n gun", "distracting", "newb". These are words used by one viewpoint to describe another.

I stopped playing BF2 completely because of the frustration that came from me not being able to play the way *I thought* the game should be played. I'm not saying I wanted to be running the bomber over the UCB wasting everything below me, but some of the things that were "frowned upon" in a game of this type were a damn stretch. It got old.

But now you get a game like GRAW, for example, similar in gameplay to its predecessors - ghost recon. I believe ghost recon was one of the most popular games at TG and I can see why. Because, in this case, the TG Primer ethos of simulation play not only makes the gameplay more fulfilling and more rewarding, but I think it directly parallels the developers intent on to how the game should be played. Not only that, but playing this game using real world military tactics actually leads to success in the game. This is something I can get behind, and thus enjoy playing on TG.

I think the failure is getting these three opposing gamers into a server together in a game where the TG Primer, again in my opinion, goes against the grain of the gameplay itself.

My take is that 1 of 2 things should happen. Either you edit the Primer to less emphasize simulation play and the restrictions on "gaming the game" or you be more selective on the games you support. As an outisder of BF2 (now), I believe TG should stop supporting vanilla completely and ONLY play the tac mod. I say this because vanilla play just creates too many 'grey area' situations and gives a battleground for these opposing view types to butt heads.

So is TG trying to be a general PC gaming community? Or is it trying to be a tactical simulation gaming community? I get the impression it started off the latter and is experiencing growing pains as it moves towards the former.