Incense Road (Custom Tac Mod Map - No Flags)

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 06-25-2006 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by black death5

@Rick: See! You said it yourself! One team will be defense for the entire round and just kill the crap out of eachother. This will need some serious rethinking and planning for it to be sucessful.

I do not get it? we carry guns for a reason right?

@asch, the team that is the most disorganized will lose to the the team that is... how should i say more mechanized on this map.
I mean thats how a lot of battles are. U leave your Base camp, go meet the enemy on the battlefield and crush them, then return back.

Again just like in all the other maps, the more orgainzed team will have advantages and the less orgainzed team will be at a disadvantage and most likly have a rough time.

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 06-25-2006 07:34 PM

However, if one team has a ticket lead they could go back to their UCB and wait it out.
On this server i am confident this will not happen.

**Santa** · 06-25-2006 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by loyalguard

All very good points Santa. I thought of middle flags as well as an alternative but never sketched them out. The idea is appealing but I initially dismissed the idea earlier because it seemed to me that then you would only advance to the middle and hunker down.

I agree with you if I did implement it, they would be flags w/o spawn points for sure.

I plan on making this map regardless of whether the no-flag concept is doable, so I will keep the map adaptable to a add "more" flags later.

Cool, its definatly worth it to at least playtest the no flag idea and see how it rolls. As long as you can easily add flags and know where youd put them in case the no flags idea doesnt work out, you're fine.

It might be interesting to see if people's incentive to attack will derive from a want to have a more defensible position, or if both sides get to a point where they both have good defensive positions and a boring stalemate ensues.

**Acid** · 06-25-2006 07:41 PM

Ok, this type of map thrives on combat ability, not tactics.

**loyalguard** · 06-25-2006 08:06 PM

In order to help either fuel or quench the fires surrounding this discussion, I've decided to release the satellite image with the UCB's superimposed as originally proposed. Not all of the terrain/man-made features will persist when I design the map (areas around the UCB will be sculpted the most to prevent "boredom" in case of a line stand-off.

The general idea is that North of the road will be field and forest fighting and to the South will be house-to-house / neighborhood-to-neighborhood fighting. The area shown is ~ 500m x 500m and remember, infantry only.

So, does the map design have potential (with or w/o flags)?
By seeing the map design, does that influence your opinion of the "no flag" concept?

**CingularDuality** · 06-25-2006 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by loyalguard

The area shown is ~ 500m x 500m and remember, infantry only.

So, does the map design have potential (with or w/o flags)?

500m? You want infantry shooting from one UCB into the opposing UCB? I'd triple that distance at the very least if I were you.

I don't see the point of designing a deathmatch map, though. TacticalGamer was created to avoid that type of gameplay specifically. I dunno, maybe there's room for one DM map? Variety being the spice of life and all?

**sordavie** · 06-25-2006 08:43 PM

How about a normal map where the immediate terrain around some CPs are totally undefendable? This would force the defending squad to spread out to defensive positions further from the flag. It may also force attacking squads to clear out those areas before capping the flag (or else they'd just get wiped out at the flag by the defenders).

**WhiskeySix** · 06-25-2006 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by black death5

Ok, this type of map thrives on combat ability, not tactics.

I think it thrives on both... the main difference between this map and regular maps is that the fighting doesn't take place at pre-defined locations... It will still require flanking, suppression, and general squad coordination to be effective!

Originally Posted by Santa

It might be interesting to see if people's incentive to attack will derive from a want to have a more defensible position, or if both sides get to a point where they both have good defensive positions and a boring stalemate ensues.

We play the game for fun, so for me atleast, there's ALWAYS incentive to attack - it's fun! We'll have to see how it goes though... Maybe a stalemate will ensue... though IMO, as long as there's plenty of room for flanking, and there's plenty of cover and 'escape routes', it doesn't necessarily need to happen.

See, I'm picturing squads on "patrol", carefully moving together, covering each other's angles, etc... since there's no destination flag you're hurrying to, there's time to maneuver tactically. Then, when contact is made, of course combat skills ('twitch') matter, but the cohesion of the squad should also be very important - the inter-squad combat will be much more dynamic... the battle can drift and roam, since niether squad has a destination, it'll be more like how boxers dance around a ring. This certainly would be pure "deathmatch" on pub servers, but to be honest, I'm really looking forward to trying this style of gaming here with TacticalGamers!!

hmm... another thought is what if there's no "UCB", and instead just a bunch of spawn points around the sides of the map? (think USMC forward spawns on Karkand)

**Rick_the_new_guy** · 06-26-2006 02:03 AM

[QUOTE=WhiskeySix]

See, I'm picturing squads on "patrol", carefully moving together, covering each other's angles, etc... since there's no destination flag you're hurrying to, there's time to maneuver tactically. Then, when contact is made, of course combat skills ('twitch') matter, but the cohesion of the squad should also be very important - the inter-squad combat will be much more dynamic... the battle can drift and roam, since niether squad has a destination, it'll be more like how boxers dance around a ring. This certainly would be pure "deathmatch" on pub servers, but to be honest, I'm really looking forward to trying this style of gaming here with TacticalGamers!! { end quote. }

Hey Dude, a seven figure Whasington D.C. lobbist just called, they want their skills back. lol.

Ummm, only infantry heyyyy... this really would bring out the snipers. So be it.
However, many players are not comfortable with 4 minutes of not wounding, bashing, shooting, or knifing someone. So being pinned down by a couple of snipers will not fly well at all. I must admit, being pinned down by a sniper for the entire match would suck even for me.
The map would need plenty of hills and not be flat in order to prevent a snip match up.

**loyalguard** · 06-26-2006 07:44 AM

@asch - I am trying to avoid a "deathmatch" game and will abandon the project if it turns into that

@Cing - If I understand the BF2 editor correctly (which is dubious at best) I believe the biggest map can only be 1024x1024, So I couldn't triple it but definitely double it. But, I think 500m should be decent. I have designed a couple of test maps and 500m sq seems to be a good infantry only size. The terrain will make it impossible to shoot from 1 UCB to another. I also think that if one side has the other pinned to their UCB line, that I don't want the attacking team to have to trek super-far to get back in the action (since they will have no flag's nearby to spawn at, only SLs)

@Whiskey - The "squad on patrol" idea is also one of the things I envisioned as well. I also think there will always be the incentive to attack. I don't think sitting at your UCB and waiting for the enemy to approach will be deisreable. I want to design this so that if your are contained to your UCB Line you have sufficient cover so as to not get killed, yet lack the manueverability to break out without working together as a team. Because it will be more difficult to break out of your UCB than to contain your enemy at theirs, I think there is a natural incentive to be offensive. That's not to say you auto-push to the enemy's UCB, you may decide to set-up an amush somewhere between, wipe out the squads, then push when they are down

@Rick - I can definitely consider adding more than just light jeeps. I just want to avoid Tanks and APC's smashing about and upseting tactics.

**Pokerface** · 06-26-2006 07:49 AM

There is zero incentive to leave the closest defensible position from where you spawn. The risk of getting shot is far to great, and doesn't come anywhere close to the reward of shooting the other guy.

The ONLY shot this map has is if there are defensible positions facing toward the enemy relatively close to the enemy's defense, and even then I'm sort of wary.

*edit for spelling

**asch** · 06-26-2006 07:52 AM

If you want a large area that a team fights for, increase the flag radius. You can create large zones that still provide an objective, but make it less about one particular spot. If you create a flag with a radius of 100, it's going to cover a large area. You could create several large zones.

And to realize actual map size, I believe Karkand is 512x2 (1024) and Mashtuur City is 1024x2 (2048) in size.

**loyalguard** · 06-26-2006 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by asch

If you want a large area that a team fights for, increase the flag radius. You can create large zones that still provide an objective, but make it less about one particular spot. If you create a flag with a radius of 100, it's going to cover a large area. You could create several large zones.

And to realize actual map size, I believe Karkand is 512x2 (1024) and Mashtuur City is 1024x2 (2048) in size.

Thanks asch. Just to review what my overall goal is, I want the whole map to be what is fought over. I want the two teams to engage each with the objective of not just killing each other (deathmatch style) but eliminate your enemy so you an advance and control the whole map. Maybe the large zone concept can do this. Thanks for the info on the map sizes, I will explore this further as well.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback so far. Before I go too much further in the creation of the actual map I am going to present a couple of map designs with different "no flag" and "flag" configurations and scenarios

**Kilrogg** · 06-26-2006 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by asch

If you want a large area that a team fights for, increase the flag radius. You can create large zones that still provide an objective, but make it less about one particular spot. If you create a flag with a radius of 100, it's going to cover a large area. You could create several large zones.

And to realize actual map size, I believe Karkand is 512x2 (1024) and Mashtuur City is 1024x2 (2048) in size.

Yeah but mashtuur only uses like 25% of that 1024x2 size. Look at the groundhemi.dds file in your Mashtuur folder and youll see how small the city is compared to the rest of the map.

Inishail is 512x2, it's pretty good for an infantry map but you need a lot of cover and hills to slow down movement from flag to flag. Anything with fields imo needs to be 1024x2. I hope you have a good rig though because I could not even load a 1024 sized map on my old PC, that's why Inishail is 512. You need at least 2 gigs of ram and a 256mb vid card.

**Acid** · 06-26-2006 11:48 AM

I am very skeptical that this map will work, but if you want to try, I'm sure we will all be happy to test it and then decide from there.

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