Re: Yuk Yuk

**Braidedheadman** · 10-24-2007, 10:27 PM

You'll find that most of the 5th have a strong dislike toward snipers because they don't capture or defend flag radii very well. It takes bodies on a flag to keep it from flipping, not kills. What's worse, far too many snipers seem to think that claymores within the flag radius is "A Good Idea™" and they end up ganking their own team mates more than the enemy. Moreover, making it to the top of the score ladder does not necessarily mean what you think it means. Defense of a lonely back flag, for instance, is a vital role that some of our best gamers take up frequently. And a low score at the end of the round is their thanks. At other times, they get pounded by combined aerial and armored assaults. Again, a poor KDR and possibly a low score are their thanks for holding the flag and maintaining bleed so the team can win.

I'm not knocking your particular style of play or saying it's right or wrong. Just be prepared to switch to a different kit if/when you join a 5th-led squad.

**khaerus** · 10-24-2007, 10:38 PM

There's a big difference between leading a squad with a sniper kit, and acting in a squad member's role with the sniper kit... I think you answered your own question.

And it does have a lot to do with the 'sniper rep', I'll admit... Not everyone plays the kit with a whole bunch of team-sense, for instance..

**Magonushi** · 10-25-2007, 07:56 AM

I think the primary benefit of a sniper in a squad is creating confusion and generating a short burst of kills right before the rest of the squad jumps on a flag or encounters another squad. If the sniper isn't extremely good/patient then more than likely he just accomplishes random sniping. Random/common sniping does absolutely nothing but hurt your team and create empty KDRs.

My main observation about normal snipers in a squad (even those working with the squad):

Step 1: Sees enemy squad and immediately begins shooting before spotting more than 2-3 targets.
Good Things:
1. Noticed incoming bad guys
2. Slowing down the enemy by forcing them to revive/smoke/respawn (gives good guys a chance to prepare)
Bad Things:
1. Position almost always compromised after the 1st/2nd take down
2. Not all enemies spotted
3. Slowing down enemy squad gives them a chance to rally their full force.

Step 2: Forced to relocate or die while enemy squad gets within normal rifle range
Good Thing:
1. At least one member of the enemy squad is semi-distracted while hunting down the sniper
Bad Things:
1. Position revealed before the two squads clash.
2. absence or diminished role during the big fight/moment of truth.

What I see good snipers do:

Step 1: ID most targets before opening fire. Concerned primarily with remaining unseen rather than getting a high KDR. Only shoots at stragglers of the group and only when he won't be seen.
Good Things:
1. Enemy squad spotted for the rest of the sniper's squad to prepare for.
2. Enemy squad unaware that they have been IDed (flipped element of surprise.)
3. Sniper remains unseen and thus remains useful during the actual clash between squads.
4. Eliminated stragglers limit the vision of the entire squad and cannot be revived without the enemy medics moving into a disadvantageous position relative to the rest of the squad.
Step 2: Waits until rest of squad begins engaging to unleash his sharp shooting fury.
Good Things:
1. Provides covering fire for advancing/flanking troops. (pins down or blinds the enemy with regards to the real attack)
2. Breeds confusion during or immediately before the main clash.
3. Ensures kills remain dead due to the pressure enemy medics are under (must revive kills caused by more than one person)
4. Provides KDR advantage at a moment the rest of the squad can capitalize upon.

Granted sometimes the best thing for a sniper to do is just lay down random sniper fire, but this is generally only when the sniper is the key to the squads success. On Risen for example a sniper or two on top of the Northern Doppler can effectively defend multiple flags and take down entire squads.

**ikonic** · 10-25-2007, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by SashaBaronCohen

Not sure why ikonic is always hating on me when I go with the sniper kit and when I do I am the only sniper kit in the squad...I am by far one of the most effective snipers I have seen in your server...consistently ranking top 5 on almost all maps...so what gives ikonic???

There are only two maps where I would consider a skilled and team oriented sniper -- on 32 Odessa and Spies Like Us.

I have nothing personal against you Sasha, but the times you decide to join a squad of mine are on maps where snipers are more of a thorn in the side than an effective unit that captures flags. Sniping on Fallen is pretty much worthless -- which I remember you joining my squad and saying I couldn't handle "your leet skills" when I asked you to not go sniper.

Also snipers are the equivalent to a raging elephant in a china shop when it comes to stealth. The moment you hear that distinct gunshot or get shot by a sniper, the entire vicinity is alerted to the sniper's presence -- as a squad leader attempting to advance or defend, this is the last thing I want the enemy to hear -- as the enemy are probably mass spotting and detecting additional people along with the sniper.

For a defending sniper, they are unlikely to hold off a determined attack force - the combination of smoke grenades, the mass of people, and imminent loss of the element of surprise and enemy intent on stabbing you does not help. If we were defending a flag, I would much rather have a person throwing down mines, C4, ammo and health than a sniper that is going to get stabbed / shockpaddled / molested while they are busy shooting another target.

Mag has good observations of your typical sniper and knowledgeable sniper; however, there is only one person of that mythical breed, and that is the dirty, Crimea SA-7 shooting, uber-bullet calibrated Mantis.

**BlackOps_Book** · 10-25-2007, 11:40 AM

It may not be my place to say...but I have never really known my place. A sniper can be useful for information and directing a team (squad) around the defense of the flag...but not an actual defender of the flag circle. Snipers can warn of incoming enemy strength and direction, can fire into the enemy formation from a distance that may make them duck for a moment, can eliminate enemy snipers at distance.

Snipers can also SUCK at taking flags (but I have seen it done), can get lots of TKs with poorly laid claymores, give away their position by firing lots of rounds from a fixed position.

Each kit has it's advantages and disadvantages...and there are times that I prefer the sniper kit...but obey the commands of my SL. Don't be limited in your vision of any particular kit. Use as many tools as you can to fight with the most effectiveness. Above all, this game is about TEAM...if you can find a way to get your men motivated as a team to do what needs to be done...you will prevail.

**ProjectNA** · 10-25-2007, 11:41 AM

*I* only hate *you* as a sniper Sasha : )

I have to admit whatever you were doing a few nights ago was working, probably as you say for your whole squad. Definitely on spies, and I think on Fallen too.

**Lucky Shot** · 10-25-2007, 12:50 PM

I understand the reason why so many new people on our server go with the sniper kit. They have played on public servers for a long time. They aren't used to being revived, rearmed, having squad mates cover one another, or defending a flag against an organized squad. If I had that background where I knew I wouldn't get revived or rearmed, I would find a safe hillside and fire away attempting to get a good KDR too.

Of the thousands of snipers I have witnessed on our server since BF2 was released there are only about 4 that I would say if "you" want to go sniper, go for it. That's only a couple who could play within the dynamics of my squad and cover approaches, spot, and play the kit in a smart way that complemented my squad leading without giving my position away and still have guts enough to charge in on a flag with his teammates with a pistol if need be. There are probably only about 7 or 8 total that I felt played the kit well enough to truly DENY the enemy of an area on the battlefield.

As a squad leader, looking at the challenges you know you will face on various maps, you need to figure out what kits you need that will allow you to meet your goals. You need medics, you need a support guy, anything after that is map appropriate or mission appropriate. It's extremely rare where I feel like I need a sniper, especially when you consider how accurate the weapons are.

The goal of the game is a mix of holding objectives and taking kills. You will not win with just kills alone and too often that seems to be the mentality of a sniper. Until that mentality changes, your likely to hear others complain that when half your team is snipers, that your team isn't trying to win.

Lucky Shot

**tHa_KhAn** · 10-25-2007, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lucky Shot

The goal of the game is a mix of holding objectives and taking kills. You will not win with just kills alone and too often that seems to be the mentality of a sniper. Until that mentality changes, your likely to hear others complain that when half your team is snipers, that your team isn't trying to win.

Lucky Shot

I think that is the real problem. People are unaware of ticket Bleed. I think many don't even get the whole concept of capture certain points to get Bleed. They are focused on kills = win and capturing the flags is for spawn points. Some also feel that is the only way to level the playing field. Some just are not good in CQB and infantry maps have a lot of short range engagements. Their twitch isn't there so the sniper kits gives them what they think is an advantage. In most cases, the same behavior with an assault rifle would yield more kills than a sniper. The range advantage is very limited on most maps and the rate of fire and grenades are more deadly.

**SashaBaronCohen** · 10-25-2007, 02:33 PM

I would say this-allow me to play as a sniper in your squad and see what kind of consistent impact i can make. I wont comment on my tactics here publicly because I often play against many of you and that just would'nt be in my best interest. I will say the negative comments that I see in this discussion are common mistakes made by the unskilled or rookie sniper. Theres nothing more I like to hear than a sniper cracking off multiple shots in a row giving away his position. They may take me out once If their lucky but their position will be given away and they will die on my next respawn. 1st rule of BF2 POE2 sniper school-Movement is key..strike and move...strike and move. I dont play the sniper kit on every map. You will often see me playing the engineer kit on vehicle driven maps providing repair support and capping flags while tearing opfor apart up close with my trusty 12gauge shotty. Shotty is my 1st choice of weapon but is not effective on many maps. Nothing like running the line clearing positions or close quarters combat with the shotty. Shotty kills give me a warm feeling inside.

Don't hate the player unless the player cant play

See you guys on the battlefield!

**Greasy Mullet** · 10-25-2007, 02:50 PM

I l33t sniper and pwn ju!

All jokes aside, the sniper kit has a role but it is a tough role to play if done right. As mentioned previous in this thread, a sniper should be a scout who helps keep the squad aware of threats while hanging back and getting a good angle to spot and take out the enemy either attacking or defending.

An example of when I have been sniper would be on Berezne where my squad would spread out a little around the flag we were defending. I would get a little bit away and watch the main access points to that flag. Once the squad moved in to take it, my squad would open fire as I spotted almost all of the enemy squad and was able to identify their squad leader and take him out... then take out the person who tried to revive him with the only 2 shots I fired while the rest of my squad took on the bulk of the fighting which made them feel safe as I waited for my shot.

IMO thats how the sniper class should be played. You gather intel, look for targets of opportunity, confuse the enemy, or deny them a certain area but all within the coordination of your squads plan.

Personally though, it is rare that I go Sniper because I find it so boring. lol...

**Mr.McFeelme** · 10-25-2007, 05:25 PM

I just wish the AT rockets had a little longer range. Nothing is worse than getting the line on a distant sniper (or tank) only to see the rocket explode in front of them.

**Magonushi** · 10-26-2007, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by SashaBaronCohen

I wont comment on my tactics here publicly because I often play against many of you and that just would'nt be in my best interest.

LOL. You realize many of us have replays with you playing sniper. A lot of your techniques can be picked up from watching you, so I dunno why you think not talking about your tactics is somehow helping you. If anything it's keeping you from getting better constructive feedback.

**kilevvri1** · 10-26-2007, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by SashaBaronCohen

I would say this-allow me to play as a sniper in your squad and see what kind of consistent impact i can make. I wont comment on my tactics here publicly because I often play against many of you and that just would'nt be in my best interest. I will say the negative comments that I see in this discussion are common mistakes made by the unskilled or rookie sniper. Theres nothing more I like to hear than a sniper cracking off multiple shots in a row giving away his position. They may take me out once If their lucky but their position will be given away and they will die on my next respawn. 1st rule of BF2 POE2 sniper school-Movement is key..strike and move...strike and move. I dont play the sniper kit on every map. You will often see me playing the engineer kit on vehicle driven maps providing repair support and capping flags while tearing opfor apart up close with my trusty 12gauge shotty. Shotty is my 1st choice of weapon but is not effective on many maps. Nothing like running the line clearing positions or close quarters combat with the shotty. Shotty kills give me a warm feeling inside.

Don't hate the player unless the player cant play

See you guys on the battlefield!

Ha ha, people like you make me laugh my head off. I mean seriously I can't count the amount of times I have multi-killed you on say Spies where you are a sniper and I am a medic. Where you had the element of surprise and I still managed to pop you in tha head with my AK/G36K. Like lucky said there are a few ppl that are qualified to run the sniper kit at any given time, you are not one.

I don't mean to be harsh, but facts are facts, when ppl start bemoaning your presence with that kit you can start talking. And BTW everyone here in most cases have honed their skills hunting and laying waste to snipers. One shot heard is all I need to start spotting you out and a few moments later I will be either all over you or you might get a lucky kill, pfft.

I agree with the 5th everyday, Snipers need to figure out if they want to kill or help. If its to help, follow your Sl/CO's orders, if not go start a pubbie squad and roam aimlessly on the boundaries of the flag while I sit watching you bleed, literally!

I really hate non team players. Stop trying to prove how great a sniper you are and try to prove how great an all around SM you are.

Nuff Said.....

Hi ikonic, Yuk yuk.

**Dark Coat Alex** · 10-26-2007, 07:03 AM

Who knew Borat was a fighter? And an accomplished sniper to boot!

Just Kidding...

Always better playing with you guys and those who care so much to think of and write all these comments than the average GDI on the free-for-all public chaos servers.

I'm still trying to figure out your tactics and practice, practice, practice... so thanks for your patience and tips. I try not to squad up with you all when you have your [TG] Divisions lined up, so you may see me if 1 or 2 of you are in a squad with several openings. I racked up alot of hours on BF2 and BF2142 before finding you guys and now it's like I'm a private again...

Anyone try playing in AIX mods? Fun but frustrating for a team oriented player as most guys are foreigners and have conversations amoungst themselves in strange tongues... like New Zealanders (Kiwis) lol. But really, it'd be nice to play with the TG crowd as a team. I play on PST time on the West Coast and notice you TG's are usually offline at night, which is when I have time to play... Any West Coast Squads?

See Ya,

BF2 call sign: Alex_Evzon

**Axis of Eeevil** · 10-26-2007, 07:50 AM

I don't think there is any constructive use of the word 'hate' by anyone about anything in this topic.

I understand the modern vernacular to say "I hate this or that" or "homeys be hatin'", but when people start getting personal--accusing someone of hating or saying I hate people like this or that, it's about to go downhill fast.

Already I can see more than one person beginning to write emotionally negative posts--feathers are getting ruffled, sides are being taken, and the language is getting more discourteous.

We can all agree there is nothing more annoying than a stubborn sniper on your team, or a very effective one on the opposing team. I think we can also agree that it is a very specialized kit with limited tactical applications, and there are few who should play it (assuming they want make contribute maximum benefit glorious team); there are few who can utilize the kit to the maximum. This is why the sniper squad is something of a joke here at TG, regardless of the fact that there may be some individually fine players on such a squad.

The web has primarily become, after porn-surfing and idea-sharing, a place to boost the ego. This is the central tenet of why web 2.0 works. Everyone wants to get kudos, be a star, be favorited, dugg, del.icio.us-ed--get lots of page views, comments, friend invites and otherwise be the envy/idol of all.

The sniper kit panders to this inherent human weakness a bit more than others when a KTD score is the main thing that determines where you are on the scoreboard. Why do you think the game has all that crap up there? So we can all look, compare and bask in glory when we get on it, of course--so we all want to be on it and play again and again to try to get back on it. Shoot ,I'm just as bad as anyone--I love getting in the top 10 or getting best anything, hell, I'm not picky. Recognition doesn't come easy these days. Who wouldn't want to be called Mr. 37-0? Not that there's anything wrong with that... *cough "haxx!" cough*

The sniper kit can sometimes bring out an elitist attitude, that I've observed anyway, and I think it's due to the ego thing and other factors. Maybe some people don't feel as successful with a different kit after sniper, or maybe it's because the lonewolf thing is a lot easier than dealing with the social dynamics of a squad, particularly leading. Snipers just don't want to give up that power, it's justthe same as people running as fast as they can for the attack chopper on certain maps.

One thing I do know. When I lead a squad and I'm in a good mood, communicating, keeping it light but not goofing off, and giving lots of encouragement and positive feedback, my guys play the TG way to the max, even if it's the first time they played on the server. They want to do it, because they want to be one of us.

Sometimes I even feel like I'm being a little too Mr. Rogers, but people respond--all people want to be appreciated, valued and encouraged. A real person giving that encouragement vs. a soulless ranking system that determines your worth by how many people you've killed? Jeeze, think about that for a second. These guys are ready to jump out of planes and draw enemy fire to help the squad, let alone change kits. I'm not sure if you've looked around lately, but this can be one damn discouraging world to live in, and hell, we're in the "top 1%" for God's sake. A little positive feedback goes a long way.

Given a choice between a bumbling, good-natured nub trying his best to do right by the team and an elite killer who's God's gift to the squad to take up the slack and get us into #1 position?

Fuhgeddaboudit.

The minute we choose score over team, we've betrayed our ideals, our teammates and Tacticalgamers. It has little to do with kit, and everything to do with how we play.

I've had the misfortune and disappointment of hearing players--even TG members, say about some TG members, "If not for him, this would be a better place to play." If we knew how others perceived us, I wonder how we would change the way we play? Maybe we should take a look in the mirror instead of pointing a finger.

Let's try to keep the thread civil, guys. No use for hatred, insults or fallacy arguments in a mature conversation, really.

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