Air Control Disbalance

**MercenarieVVV** · 04-11-2008, 03:01 PM

I just would like to point attention at one map so far- Berezan Island. In case of two good pilots and good ground AA operator it is virtually impossible to fly over the island for USMC forces. And one can easily add Hind gunner to all this difficulties. So it comes to 4 AA units against barely 2 for USMC (as F-18 proved itself simply useless plane).

I'm pretty sure that situation have to be changed. Like adding Gepard spawn at Lighthouse and changing F-18 for F-22 ground attack plane. This will almost make it even in the air -in case of lighthouse control and /or will make separate control zone for the air half of island under Ukraine air control/half under USMC(and USMC have to deserve their Gepard first).

**Greasy Mullet** · 04-11-2008, 03:30 PM

I would like to see peoples opinions on this as the maps balance can go either way.

I see the F18 as effective just it is rare that I see people use it well. In our next patch it will be even more effective.

One thing we can do is tie the bomber spawn to a flag. So depending on which team owns the flag, depends on which bomber spawns. So if we tied it to the beach flag the team 1 holding it spawns the F22 and team 2 spawns the F18. That is what is used currently on Guardian to spawn either the Su27 or Froggy.

**MercenarieVVV** · 04-11-2008, 03:51 PM

Greasy, just recently we flyed with Magonushi at F-18. First- it is useless as AA unit because of low maneuverability and week missiles Second- give me idea haw the ..... gunner have to aim at something? Hitting something is just a matter of pure luck. Magonushi made like 4 kills in may be 10 trips and we were killed like 7 times. I will deny any doubts in Magonushy gunner skill as he manage to make over 50 kills in a round as Tornado gunner with me.
Ok we used high altitude tactics- It was constantly over 600 and Magonushi couldn't hit anything and still they manage to kill me. Also I would like to point that F-18 has very very very low amount of bombs sooo.....
I will keep my opinion- F-18 is totally useless plane and can not be compared even closely to ground attack SU27 or F-22, and even more fare away from Froggie.

Also what about Gepard idea? I think that main problem goes from Ukrainian ground AA.

**draeh** · 04-11-2008, 04:46 PM

As far as ground AA is concerned I do feel that the USMC is at a disadvantage. All the usual TG pilots know exactly where and how to disable the stationary AA points on the map. The one wild card is the UKR SAM. Its mobility largely changes the Air balance. The one pickup kit on the beach just isn't enough for the USMC to offset the mobile SAM. Its worse if UKR takes beach and then has the pickup kit too.

I understand that it is an assault map and that USMC should be at a disadvantage to start, but I do like the idea of some kind of mobile AA for USMC once they take a flag (Lighthouse). I do not like the Gepard because it can change the balance when its flak cannons are used against infantry. Does the USMC arsenal have a mobile SAM without the flak cannons?

EDIT:

What about having the UKR SAM tied to a different flag like Camp? When UKR is in control of Camp, they get the SAM spawn, but when USMC has Camp no SAM.

**Greasy Mullet** · 04-11-2008, 04:58 PM

Thats possible. Also keep in mind that the US has guided arty and Ukraine does not have any arty at all.

**draeh** · 04-11-2008, 05:04 PM

If I'm paying attention, I'm very good at avoiding the TLAM most of the time when using the UKR SAM.

Maybe the balance is being aware of the SAMs advantage and making sure that someone neutralizes it when spotted. If I have a gunner in the SAM, infantry is not a problem, but armor of any sort puts the SAM down easy.

EDIT:

Yet another thought... what about simply increasing the spawn time of the SAM. That would be a really easy thing to test.

**MercenarieVVV** · 04-11-2008, 05:27 PM

Draeh where is not one but at list three ( correct me, may be more) pick up AA kits at this map. And they can belong to both teams. Ukr has one at radar and airfield exit (don't remember correct name). I think they also have one at light house, but I'm not sure. Still UKR can have all of this kits and add them to their AA superiority as well.

I think that spawn time for SAM will change little at this map, but the idea of SAM spawn at some other point than UCB is pretty good.

**[EDF]_eflight** · 04-11-2008, 05:31 PM

This is where teamwork really comes in. Yes the UKR mobile sam can own the sky, but it is a sitting duck if someone comes after it with a tank, AT or C4. If just 1 guy decides to hunt the sam out then its in real trouble.

I think its a decent offensive trade with the Tomahawk. I just wish the SAM could shoot down the Tomahawk

Don't nerf the SAM just because the flyboys whine about getting shot down. Maybe the flyboys shouldn't just fly over the center of the island all the time, or maybe one of the pilots should get on the ground and kill the SAM to help the always overfilled airplane squad

**MercenarieVVV** · 04-11-2008, 05:58 PM

Eflight- u really underestimate the importance of air control at this map. Two planes and helo can easily control all and any armour assaults at SAM staying safe at the north side of the Island. and as far as it goes I bet u good SU27 pilot will make much better score and bring way stronger punch on your ground forces than anybody using cruise missiles. Considering that Su can bring up bombs like 10 times quicker and be exactly where it have to be at a moment, also SU actually "see" his targets and even if they moved it can still manage to destroy them at one trip.

Second- AA planes Flanker and Raptor are not even as well - SU can clearly have idea of where raptor could be and in air combat the entire idea is- who first to catch-first to kill. And as far as it goes Su can just move little bit closer to the centre of the island and voila- SAM kills raptor. Not to mention that ground attack SU27 has also very high AA capabilities and it is way more capable than F-18. If u wanna bet - same level pilots will make 10 of 10 kills against F-18 using SU.
And the most important- Entire ground assault for USMC is based on using air as the beach flag is very easy to block using great superiority in armour units and helos. So if one team will block the air control USMC stands no chances at all. And I've seen that way too many times to think that it is conscience.

**Greasy Mullet** · 04-11-2008, 06:33 PM

I think you are going way overboard on your assesment of the balance of this map. This map can go either way currently. Small tweaks to further help the balance might be in order but you make it sound like its just a massive shut out every round when I know thats not the case.

Again this map can go either way as I have seen it personally many times.

**COUNTER=OPS** · 04-11-2008, 07:27 PM

There is no fairness in war!! Someone always has the upper hand. It is how you handle your assets as to whether or not you win the round. Vehicles and aircraft take up too many people waiting for them to spawn and or die so the vehicles will re-spawn. Thats that many people not capping flags.
Remember that a spotted vehicle at or near a flag is on borrowed time!

**MercenarieVVV** · 04-11-2008, 08:09 PM

I think that balance is important cause it is not a war, it is a game. And if one team has lower chances to win people at this team have no fun fighting, just waiting for this round over.
For the easier way to track we can just check TG server stat for this map with 64 players. What is the score? I guess 32 players will have advantage to Ukraine again.

Greasy - just try to use F-18 yourself and tell me haw good was your score next time and after that complain that people do not use F-18 that often. Never ever at this server, nore at German servers I've seen people with high or even decent score using F-18. May be u need to change something?

**Greasy Mullet** · 04-11-2008, 08:24 PM

[QUOTE='[tR]Greasy_mullet;968036']I see the F18 as effective just it is rare that I see people use it well. In our next patch it will be even more effective.QUOTE]

^^^^

This item though does not make the balance for this map and as I said it could go either way. All I am saying is I think you are blowing up the issue to be larger than it is and that from my experience playing this map I see it go either way. This is one of our better maps for balance IMO. Any map where the sides do not have mirror equipment, you will always see balance complaints (Snake Eyes, Crimea, Kerch).

Reading my quote you should see though that the first thing I said in this thread was that the F18 is getting a small boost to help it out in our next patch which means that we do see a need to improve it.

**SAITCHO** · 04-12-2008, 12:26 AM

Since im not an air guy but rather a ground one here is my view about this map: Its among the map I hate the most as a usmc player because once you manage to grab a flag and try to defend it you have close to nothing to defend against air units. The static AA gun are very close to useless since its gonna be the first thing any decent pilot will take out, the pickups kits are more annoying to the other side than usefull. The only option left to defend against helos is the tanks wich isnt really what they are designed for. My suggestion for that map and all the others with static aa emplacement is either have two of them so they can cover each other or have maybe 3 possible spawn point and randomly spawn at one of them so they dont get shot right off the bat.

**rich73** · 04-12-2008, 12:43 AM

I'd have to suggest that the USMC get 1-2 Gepards as they take flags on the map.

The Hind has Air-Air capability. The USMC helos do not, and the Hind is more heavily armored. The Gepards would even it out a bit, and make it a bit more tenable for ground troops, but are completely vulnerable to armor.

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