Axis of Eeevil

I decided to start a new thread because this goes a bit more in-depth, and I wanted to make a clear distinction in subject matter.

The main imbalance issue that leads to a dissatisfying experience and server population loss is insurmountable odds for one team due to player skill inequity. I believe that this issue, more than any other (having to do with balance and switching), should be the one we are most concerned with.

If you have a high-school or below reading skill level, please read that a couple of time to make sure you get it.

Here is my reasoning for this statement. Good sportsmanship needs to be our main goal, because it supports all the aspects of our TG Principles statement , and is the core value we hold. Taking a careful look at those principles, we should all be able to see that our proactive participation is needed to support the TG mission:

I believe that we need to pay real attention to the complaints of a new member, because what they see and experience is what 10 others who didn't sign up for membership, and didn't post, experienced. Discounting their concerns as invalid or putting the onus on them to uphold OUR principles is a very poor judgement call, in my opinion. If we aren't willing to be reminded of our commitment to support TG not just with our membership, but with our actions, this is a real invitation for becoming an insular, "elitist" and consequently fractious group: things fall apart; the center cannot hold.

Every selfish action we take affects our community. This is known as "the tragedy of the commons" and we see it every day in various ways: the lone sniper, not helping his squad. The SL who issues no orders. The highly skilled player who is unwilling to accept the responsibility they have to stay situationally aware, and switch sides when it becomes obvious that a skill inequity is creating a negative experience for the players.

As I log in, I check team scores. If the UKR team's top player has a score of 80, the next 76, the next 72, the next 66 and so on, but the GER's top player score is 68, then this is all I need, I know exactly what will be happening in the server, I dread being on either team--simply because my presence or absence doesn't make the same impact that 2-3 12th or 71st members do. I know how much time we have to restore balance before the server population starts to respond.

Arguments for who is SLing or not, who is capable or not, whether or not people need to "kick it up a notch" and so on just don't have the strength, in terms of argument, to stand up to what we KNOW will happen if we don't try to fix it. Those statements are often true. I believe they are often valid. But if it isn't happening after 3 rounds, it's not going to happen. Dejected players can't "kick it up a notch" and once that starts to infect a team, who is SLing will not matter. I watched it happen--our best SLs will hop over to the other team, try to pull it out of it's nosedive, but it's too little, too late. Another game lost, half the server bails out, often typing their frustration in chat, and I think "I don't blame them. Why do we keep doing this to ourselves?"

When I come into those score-imbalanced, skill imbalanced games, I start to suggest there may be an imbalance right away. I'm sure many think I'm a whiner, and some even say so, but I'm willing to be ridiculed a bit to get the message across. I see who immediately responds with concern, and most of the time it gets fixed within a map or two, and the server population stays strong. I also see who are the naysayers, the ones reluctant, the ones who type in all kinds of justifications why they should not have to take responsibility.

Well, let me tell you something, naysayers. I'm not going to stop raising my voice. I will always be putting myself in the shoes of the least-skilled player (not too hard to do for me) and checking if they can have fun and enjoy playing here. So don't give me guff. I know who you are. There's not many of you who have been here as long as I have, and there certainly isn't anyone among you that has worked as much as I have with TG newcomers and up-and-comers. I don't have, nor would I want the authority to say what happens on the server, but I know what makes TG grow, what makes people want to play here and what our responsibility to them is. They are the ones who will be keeping this place strong when we've moved on. I want to come back in 30 years and still see TG as the force for good that it is on the internet.

This isn't just a place to play games, and we all know it. When on of our guys is hurting or worried or just needs a thumb-up and place to sound off, we're there for them. We honor those who work and sacrifice their time for this place, and they have the badges to show our appreciation. We CANNOT let one game, one round, one great night we're having, one weapon, one SL, one team, become more important. It's lazy. It's selfish. It's not TG.

Unfortunately the major weight of this responsibility rests on about 20 players who are just about always in the top 5 or 10. I may make it there some nights, and when I'm on fire, I understand that it may be me who needs to take the initiative, leave my buddies, my squad and my team, and join my othe buddies, another squad, on the other team. Maybe I have to leave my buddies and my squad and make a new one so the greenhorns will stop goping FUBAR and get some objectives under their belt.

I wish it was straightforward, but it's not. We all have our off nights, so saying that Gahlas, Namebot, Project and Khaerus should always be the ones to switch would be ridiculous. We need to remain situationally aware, gauge what impact our presence is having on our team's success, and discuss on TS to see what the appropriate actions may be. We need to be on the same team, and the same page of the playbook here.

For those who consistently avoid taking responsibility for their skill level and influence, and refuse to make an effort to ensure our members' and guests' play quality, let me be frank: I won't forget, and I won't pull my punches if it comes up in conversation. I will consider those so inclined as a liability to TG. This is a part of the mature play component, folks, so if you can't hack it with the grownups, go be a kid somewhere else. You can depend on me to play decently, act respectfully and play with you, but I won't hide what you're doing. I'm not afraid to mention it to someone who may be able to "persuade" you to change. I'll let you know personally before any of that, of course. I'm not throwing my weight around here, just putting my cards on the table.

Players like this have been a threat to TG's success, and my primary concern, ever since I joined. From what I see TG is a perfect microcosm of the theoretical commons. Self-interest maximizers are a threat to it's existence, and community-interest maximizers support its function--both fairly small percentages of the entire community--while the majority simply enjoy the benefits of the community and may support it in one small way or another, but are not particularly proactive or preventative. TG is an island of good people in an ocean of bad, nasty and worse. Everyone who makes it here needs to help, or at least not hinder, what we're doing.

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Rick_Slick

Not saying I don't disagree, but I'm fairly "non-elite"... and I'll play devil's advocate and bring the following points to the table to also be discussed:

1) For a server designed for mature gamers, doesn't the premise "People can only enjoy the game if they have a chance of winning" smack of a bit of immaturity?

2) How are we "non-elite" supposed to become better players if, at the first sign of challenge or being against seemingly insurmountable odds, we "even up the sides" and make things easier for them?

The biggest factors for me leaving the server? A map I don't like comes up in the rotation, or quite simply, I'm done for the night. Getting pummeled has nothing to do with it... it's part of the game, and we all came from Vanilla BF2 where we had to put up with magical raining ordnance arty strikes and an eye in the sky that showed us wherever we were hiding. I could be on the winning team 3 rounds in a row, but if I get killed for the 50th time by Dirty*Berd* and the AM Rifle, I'm probably done for the night a little sooner than others.

If I had a chance to save one of my team's flags from being capped by jihad-jeeping the tank guarding it, and I am stopped at the last second by remembering this server has a problem with that, and instead the flag gets capped and I try running up to SAITCHO's tank to plant my C4 and I fail to run outside of the kill radius before detonating it, then I get harassed for "suicide C4ing"... I'm probably done for the night a little sooner than others.

If I'm flying a jet, closing in someone else in a jet and they slow down and pull up at the last second and my drunken reflexes are not quick enough to evade, then I get harassed for "ramming"... I'm probably done for the night a little sooner than others.

Nothing against the rules, I'm well aware of them, just want to make sure we're putting everything on the table here.

Having said that, I'm glad there appears to be genuine interest in evening up the sides in an effort to keep those who do not prefer to lose 5 rounds in a row interested in playing on the server, which of course benefits me because that usually means more claymores for me to blindly run into and find for my squad.

dwb716

Wow good post AoE and I like your stance on this as well i have seen things at times playin.
having played '42 and full bf2 for near four years this strikes a cord with me.
thank you.
ps Rick Slick aye sometimes feel the same.

DWB

HiTestFest

Situationally aware..

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gator skywalker

What is wrong with this picture?

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Rick_Slick

While it's fairly easy to just slap up a picture and expect people to draw their own conclusions, it's still important to know the context...

1) UKR has won 41 rounds, GER has won 39 rounds. For all we know, GER team just got pummeled the last two rounds and some TG guys swapped over to that side to even things out.

2) UKR has a dude who just joined within the last few minutes of the pic being taken, because he is unsquaded and has 0 points. Which means UKR was recently at 9 players while GER was at 11, which tells me that UKR recently lost between 1 and 3 players otherwise auto-balance would have kicked in before plasmaFLY joined to even things up to 10-10.

3) I will even give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your entire full squad named "Airbone" actually had nothing to do with waiting for/scrambling for aircraft while everyone else was on the ground trying to cap flags.

4) 20% of your team is snipers.

5) UKR failed to combine the non-full squads... wouldn't have made much of a difference probably, but every little bit helps. Unless the 1-3 players that recently left (from #2) were all part of Charlie squad. I'm pretty sure the other team, with all the TG on it, would have made sure they were operating one 6-man squad and a 5-man squad.

6) From the points, it doesn't look like Project is even trying. You also have two guys on the GER team that either recently joined or are just sitting around AFK, bringing their effective number down to 9.

Gahlas

Last night I wrote up two pretty lengthy responses to this but I just ended up deleting them. Why? I don't really see a problem. The skilled players are always swapping squads to even things out. I probably saw it happen two dozen times last night. TG is fantastic about keeping the balance or at least trying to.

I can think of maybe one person that abuses the team switch function to get what they want and probably wouldn’t balance things when they are needed, that is out of everyone at TG PoE.

And as someone who has been playing here for almost three years, up until the last year and a half almost exclusively in Non-TG squads I must say this; Tactical Gamer is the most willing gaming community on the internet to go out of their way to see to the needs of these players and make sure they have a good game.

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corporate

Something went crazy last night. We had about 4 rounds where to opposing team could not gain a foothold.

I'm not sure if it was a skill/experience imbalance or simply more effective teamwork.

I wouldn't assume that more TG tags means a stronger team. There many great players who are not wearing a tag. It's the new names we need to help out.

I think squads need to get back to the basics. Like the stuff I learned in my 5th days.

It seems like no one spawns on lead anymore at the start of a round. I always say hold spawn, but at least 3 will spawn anyway. I realized that some new guys might not know why we do that so I explained it to my squad and will continue to do so for the new names.

Also, things like holding position on SL and holding fire until a whole squad can move on the flag together. I'm seeing a lot of enemies coming to try to take my flag moving in one at a time every 15 secs or so. A well defended flag can't be taken this way.

I try to lead at least a couple of rounds each night. I noticed that there are more wanderers lately. Usually new names. I try to pull them into the TG way rather than just kicking them from my squad but sometimes they don't get the message.

I honestly don't know what exactly went wrong last night, but I'll be ready to switch if it happens again.

ProjectNA

I think it went fine. People were going out of their way to keep the teams balanced. As corp says, we lost a few rounds just due to better squad play on the opposing team. The teams looked balanced (as much as you can tell just by looking at names), it just came down to better play (by you guys

On the screenie gator posted, I think Rick summed it up pretty well. Obviously with small numbers of players, its even harder to "find balance". I would say the awareness has been raised, people (that read these forums) are cognizant of the issue, and we should keep having fun. If you see imbalance, raise it on TS. I have seen a willingness to balance. I'm not so sure in chat is the right way, as people pile on to that being the issue, instead of improving squad play, etc.

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ParkBench

I don't think anyone that reads/posts here in the forums, "enjoys" the 240 - 0 rounds.

switching and stacking... I'm not sure how you complete avoid it, except to just be mindful. You're never going to stop some folks for jumping to the 'winning side' or the perceived better weapons side. so... you do the best you can.

When I'm on the the pwned side for 2 rounds or so, and notice NO one defending flags, and no one moving as squads. I generally ask my squad-mates if this is how its been "all night". Then next round, I try and slow things up. I SL, and throw up big Purple Defend orders on the closest flag.

I'm not elite. but I know which maps I do better on. so I don't switch unless switched.

we're in another rock / hard place situation. population has been down (summer) and those populating the server who have not come to the forums, don't want to come to the forums. kicking a player for not playing right, means they pop right back on, and chalk it up to a dropped connection. They don't read. so banning folks is less 'popular'.

the new version will come out, and we'll have big #s again for a couple weeks. and then who knows.

I don't mind getting completely destroyed for a couple rounds if I see the team I'm on is actually trying, and winning minor goals. What I hate seeing is a round of 300 - 0 ending with "gg" "gg" "gg" wtf? seldom on this server is a 300 - 0 a good game. Capping out another team is almost always due to a lack of coop, on the loosing side, and not just complete pwnage by the winning side.

Sides lose big, but they seldom win big. if that make sense.

the guys I look up to as amazing players, who hang out in the TS channel, all switch sides to level the playing field. so... I'm not sure what more can / needs to be done.

except removing the sniper kit from availability in the next release? I will say this, they make it a pick up kit only, and I will camp the spawn of the sniper kit. or learn to actually use c4, and set the thing up.

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Park Bench

Aces High Swim Team

HiTestFest IS the illest Brotha.

ThaGoat

Good points Axis...

Gator, its very possible that the top three on the German side where "Medics". Which in scoring means kill a enemy....make a point..."BUT" kill an enemy, revive ur sqd mate, defend flag is a triple crown of scoring goodness. I didnt see any medics on ur team....not a bad thing Bro...just a tactical error.

Axis of Eeevil

Yeah, I just want to clarify here, after getting a couple concerned PMs (thank you for your concern) and reading the really positive response here.

Rick, I welcome a Devil's Advocate any time, essential to a well-rounded discussion. Your points are well taken. I will challenge your implication that if one is truly mature, losing isn't a problem--not because it isn't true--but because it's a Red Herring from my point, which is the insurmountable odds.

I'm talking about trying and trying and trying and switching tactics and trying and trying more and then trying something new, and trying and trying, and still losing. And the same the next map. And the next map. And the next map. And then people don't have any more will to try, you just can't do it after that much failed effort, you know? It's when the best you are capable isn't enough, and that isn't fun, and we play to have fun. SO that's my response on that one, and I feel fairly sure you'd agree.

In fact I feel we ALL are in agreement here with the core issues of fun, playability and being the best there is for guys and gals who love to play the TG Way.

Gahlas, I agree with you completely, and every once in a while I force myself to boot up BF2V and join a random server to remind myself HOW GREAT THIS PLACE IS. I love it. As I've said before, this place is my "bye honey, I'm going to have a few beers with the guys", and I wouldn't want it any other way (well, I kind of miss darts). That's why it hurts when I see an obvious imbalance going on and on, people leaving the server with a bad impression, and nobody seeming to care. That gets me worried and upset.

I've been really pleased with the last several nights, and I want to make sure we don't all get touchy about the issue; I think most of the guys on TS should all agree, "hey, let's mix it up, this is getting bad" or else the losing team gives it another go. There have been lots of times when 3 games are lost badly and then suddenly it turns around, even without switching. There are so many variables that having top-fivers switch it up is really a roll of the dice. You get SAITCHO in a tank and it's scary, but on the ground he ain't SO tough. Very few are all-around deadly top 3 KDR players, no matter the kit or map. We know who they are, and we all agree: they are evil and must die, by the knife if possible. Maps, player, and SL, big-time, are the determining factors.

If anything, the one thing we don't do as often as we perhaps should is break up the mostly TG regulars squads to each lead individually. Not that I'm saying that's a problem, although it can become one, but it does seem to be one thing we're often reluctant to do.

Anyway, my main point in posting was: I think this is where we need to keep focus, not so much on jerks who switch for a weapon (but are pretty nice guys the rest of the time, probably) but on seeing the TG servers as a public commons, and ourselves as the keepers and public servants of those commons. If we start using our position to benefit ourselves personally, then we're no better than some county commissioner using a river patrol boat to take his family fishing. Not the worst you can do, but kind of sleazy and underhanded.

I look forward to playing with you all soon.

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draeh

Especially with low player counts, it becomes more important for TG regulars to lead the pubbies. I'm guilty of just jumping in with regulars too. After all, I am here to have a good time. My lack of SL experience usually keeps me from taking the field, but I guess I'll have to get comfortable with it.

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HiTestFest

Well I know you are not pointing at me...LOL

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SAITCHO

"but on the ground he ain't SO tough"... Ill keep that in mind next time we play and will go the extra mile just to make you change your opinion.....

Back on the topic, my position is still the one from the beginning: if the player dont even things up, simply balance the game with an unbalanced map. Send the uber team attacking on snakes eyes and lets see if they still look tough. The only thing needed is an admin who is aware of the situation and willing to switch maps. Mantis did it a few times a while back and it worked wonders.But on the other hand I have seen the opposite, sending the loosing team attacking on snakes eyes and that was simply a slaughter, admins should also be aware of that situation.