troublesome4u

I'm pretty sure I was hitting the wheat silo APC from Farmhouse Flag. The hits were registering and if my engineer had stayed alive long enough I may have been able to take him out. When I was under fire, the suppression effect blinded me, but I was able to see and aim for a white dot (muzzle fire) and hit him.

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Mr.McFeelme

The points (on both sides of this issue) that have been made sound a lot like an argument on bunnyhopping. Not that that actually means anything, but it does have that feel.

In my opinion, I consider using the APC in this way as a 'frowned upon' behavior. Not against the rules, but not good sportsmanship either.

While this technique may have a valid use, face it, people are doing it to score points. If, for example, armor received no points for killing infantry, do you really think this thread would exist?

Incidentally, I think this sort of issue was the reason for so many balance issues in the BF2 patches. For example, in vanilla, jets are(were?) killing machines. Thats good, thats what they should be. However, because of the ease of killing everything else, people TK'ed for them. Instead of changing the weapon's armaments, damage, speed or whatever, Dice should have changed the points the jet pilot got for killing various targets. Something like zero points for killing infantry, a half point for light vehicles, a point for armor, two for helos and three for enemy aircraft. That would have solved the problem without throwing the balancing out of whack.

Why they never tried something like this is beyond me. I guess it would have thrown the stat tracking off, or it isn't possible to have fractional points or something. But hey, if vanilla wasn't so messed up, I bet many of us would have never tried POE, so its all good in the end.

WhiskeySix

Depends on if killing still reduced the enemy's tickets as it does now. Let's not forget that killing = helping your team WIN!


That being said, we don't play win-at-all-costs here. Sportsmanship counts, and having fun is a very important priority. That's why we work w/ the devs to test/balance maps and why we do server-side mod's where appropriate to improve gameplay.

For example, we removed the attack helo's on Port Yalta because there isn't a viable counter to them, and they make the map joyless for MANY.

In this case, a vehicle shooting over wall at Wheat Silos, there ARE some very viable counters to the tactic. It appears however, that none of them were used here.

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Reflexes are for mistakes only. Reaction implies surprise. Be surprised less.

jb4

Everybody is entitled to a different opinion on this one, but you may be making a big assumption. How do you know what the SL orders were? Was this person commanded to defend? Was he commanded to support the attack? It is a big assumption to believe people in armor are just racking points. Even if there were no points for armor it is still a tactical tool used in many different ways like reducing tickets. What should he have done? The map dynamics are pretty straight forward on this map. I have played many rounds on this map where we attacked that point, destroyed the armor and then claimed it. The overcome option is always available.

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POE2 Overview|BF2v Server Rules|Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising

Namebot

Forgotten Hope 2 has a variable point kill system, much like you described McFeelme. Assets are still used to their full potential in that mod.

It appears there are many ways of using assets being described in this thread. It should help if people are specific when referring to them, rather than "this way". A short description of the particular aspect(s) you are commenting on would help make your point more clear.

The shooting enemy way?

The spawnkilling way?

The using cover way?

The not driving it straight onto an enemy flag way?

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Mr.McFeelme

I was speaking in more general terms than this particular instance. I have no idea what the orders were. But even if the orders were to defend, that does not immediately make every tactic a valid one, does it?

For example, if a person jumps in a fast jeep and drives around running over people, that will reduce the ticket count and suppress the enemy. yet that is a frowned upon (or maybe kickable) behavior, isn't it?

Personally, I view this in the same way I view sniping or using arty inside the dome of doom. I don't like it, and I will not do it -- valid tactic or not. If you feel the hide-behind-the-wall tactic is a good one, go for it. I am not in favor of making a rule against it.

But, just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to. I played a little IO vanilla the last few weeks, and it was a bunnyhopping nadefest. Since bunnyhopping was OK on that server, does that mean I should have bunnyhopped? Was I hurting my team because I refuse to bunnyhop?

unKind-Bud

It is?
I find it thoroughly enjoyable, just reading it has me lolling, and I am quite confident that I have at least 5 kills on Highway to Hell that way.

unKind-Bud

I should clarify - I mean get in a fast mover to go from CP A to CP B, and en route, unfriendly is in way, run him over, as you get close to flag, get lucky enough to kill his buddy - not hop in Jeep from start of round till end, with the hope of killing ppl solely with your ride.

WhiskeySix

That's fine... doing laps around the loop on Orel? Not so much.

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Reflexes are for mistakes only. Reaction implies surprise. Be surprised less.

unKind-Bud

Maybe not - but again, seeing it typed out made me giggle like a gradeschooler at the thought.

: )

jb4

Basically IMO, if you are within server rules, supporting the spirit of the TG Primer and the game, then a tactic that contributes to the success of your team is probably valid. Validity is not tied to whether we like it or not. Again, you have to split the hair and ask, "am I concerned that a player is utilizing assets on the map as they are given?" or "am I concerned about the map dynamics?". If it is determined that there is an unfair advantage on any map then the admin team may make modifications as they have in the past. To me, that is more about the map than the player.

The NASCAR tactic is clearly stated as against the rules on the server and may warrant a kick/ban based on admin decision. Taking cover or using the structures designed into the maps (unless you are wall hacking) is not against the rules.

I do not like those either, but a rule was made that allows players to attack the asset in the UCB where normally that would not be allowed. The option to overcome was granted in those cases. In the case of the APC, it was always open to attack if the choice to do so was made.

That is true, we all make choices. My main disagreement was labeling something as not good sportsmanship about a player operating within the rules of the game when the concern may be more about map dynamics. To take an extreme position just for example; is it considered bad sportsmanship when the military sends in Apache attack helicopters into enemy positions to soften targets before infantry attacks? That is one of the known military rules of engagement. It is a tactic that helps the team win. We may agree to disagree on this one. I think we really need to separate what are player actions within the rules and what are map dynamics that allow certain scenarios to play out. I may grumble if I am on the receiving end, but if it is within the rules then I am thinking about how to overcome it. In the end, these types of discussions are good to have.

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POE2 Overview|BF2v Server Rules|Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising

Mr.McFeelme

What is and and isn't against the rules is one thing. What is and isn't good sportsmanship is another.

The rules are established and posted. There is not much that is left to interpretation.

But everyone has different opinions of what constitutes good sportsmanship. And thats how I'm evaluating that tactic. From a sportsmanship point of view, I cannot see a difference between the APC behind the wall and the indy 500 jeep race or hiding arty in the DOD. But thats my opinion and mine only. If you see it differently, thats fine -- we have different opinions on the matter.

ProjectNA

This is a great discussion, and just the fact that we are having it reinforces why I have invested time in this community.

I was CO'ing that round - there were squads attacking both the flag in question and the one south of the windmill. Did I cringe sometimes looking at his score? Yes, as I could guess how fun it was to be on the receiving end, but we needed that flag. Should I have commanded him to park it around back, or push on the other flags? Nah - it was him, me and I think Park defending that flag, our only flag for most of the round. If anyone had gone after our flag at Wheat, which only happened once or twice, obviously he would have swung his turret around and taken care of local business.

I was playing against SAITCHO last night and he went like 60-5 with the AMR on Orel. Our squad spent a lot energy just trying to find him - tactically, he made us expend a lot of time.

Point is, when he is on the other team he sucks the fun out of my game if he has a round like that and I am anywhere near him. But its effective, and they gave us guns to shoot. He is within the rules, he is making his contribution to his team.

I see both sides, so I guess I haven't contributed anything, but everyone else posted so darnit I'm going to get my 2 cents in too.

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ParkBench

good on ya!

you know what would make the AMR better. if there was even a 10% chance it miss-fired and killed the shooter.

as for would troublesome said higher up the thread, kid, you were wailing the wall in front of me, when I was sitting in the dingo, annoying you, and your tank... and killing your engineer. but none of those hits registered on the dingo. I never lost a bit of armor.. else I'd have bolted in that thing. I die way too often in vehicles, trying to get every last bit of gasoline out of them.

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Park Bench

professionally trolling the forum full time.

Bloedig

Good thing about this thread? It got me to finally register here at TG.

Bad thing about this thread? It got me to finally register here at TG. lol


I love playing here at TG and usually do so on PR when I play it (not often) too, as my "clan" doesn't play mods. I love the team play and the attitudes of most (that it's about the win not how many points you score, etc.)

However, having said that, in the last couple weeks I have been more than upset with the play of some people on the server (both TG regulars and the odd drop in). What the issue has been for me is the camping of flags by APCs and Tanks with NO effort to take the flag. I fully understand the tactic of heavy armor, or even a Dingo for that matter, sitting outside a flag and helping a squad take a flag. No prob, great tactic, end of story.

However, when it's just one or two bonehead score whores that care only about the way their score looks it pisses me off to no end. And yes, your going to say stuff like "maybe they were helping there team take the flag and you didn't see it" or "maybe they were the squad leader and were using the point as a spawn" etc, etc, etc. It has happened so often lately, that I actually will watch the situation unfold from a distance and keep track of what the result of the "armor camping of a flag" are and it's almost never being used as a "tactic" (spawn point for squad to take flag, etc). I can also tell you that in 5 cases in the last week (yes I have counted), the person(s) doing this were on the loosing team. So, not a real tactic in my view. In fact, if it were not for the rule about switching sides, I would switch every time I saw these "Tank Whore Crews" and or a team of snipers. lol

IMHO:

1) Bunny hopping is not a huge deal (but it's made out to be and that's cool).
2) Jihad jeeps and ramming are less offensive to the game than camping flags with armor. At least with the "suicide" tactics, you actually help your team in a big way usually.

Flame away, but it's just the way I feel about the subject and something I would "expect" TG to feel the same way about.