Fallen removed from frontlines?

bucky-fn-dent · 10-12-2008, 02:58 AM

Is it just me but does Fallen just not work with frontlines?

I love fallen and the frontline style of play but it is not the kind of map where you go from point A to point B. I get capture of the 1-2-3 flag but it is not linear which makes frontline objective seem to work. Without a decent SL you tend to spend more time looking at a map than playing.

Fallen is one of the crown jewels of POE so why not leave it the way it is?

**Namebot** · 10-12-2008, 04:08 AM

It seems to work fine to me as long as your team can count forward and backwards. Last night the GER team certainly seemed to have a hard time grasping the concept though. I have seen this plenty of times with frontline maps. Even though our admins usually take the time to explain in large green letters how to play people will sit at the same flag for 15 minutes while their team gets capped out.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 10-12-2008, 11:29 AM

Here is a screen shot of the German team before we restarted after attempting to explain things. (Note we had been explaining over VOIP and Chat the whole time).

Now here is one after the restart.

As you can see more of the team "got it" but still a large % did not.

I agree that without looking at your mini map it is more complicated since it is not linear. I really could not come up with a flag layout which would be linear like most of the others but really thought Fallen would be a fun map to do which would allow new areas of the map to open up for combat.

Perhaps it just does not work out since so many people just did not grasp it. I was just trying to provide us with some variety when I made it.

**jb4** · 10-12-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet

I agree that without looking at your mini map it is more complicated since it is not linear. I really could not come up with a flag layout which would be linear like most of the others but really thought Fallen would be a fun map to do which would allow new areas of the map to open up for combat.

Perhaps it just does not work out since so many people just did not grasp it. I was just trying to provide us with some variety when I made it.

I missed this one last night. In general, thanks for trying to mix things up with new ideas. We seem to get a pretty regular flow of new players and it takes a time or two to understand a new map or type of game. I remember when we had Fallen on the "altered map" night a few months ago and so many people liked it they asked for it to be in the regular rotation more often. Personally, I enjoy fighting on new parts of classic maps like Fallen and Orel once in a while. Maybe on the load in screen you can add directional markers or bold CP numbers so player can get a heads-up on what is coming. Not sure if that was in there or not.

bucky-fn-dent · 10-12-2008, 01:50 PM

I have to admit I did join the round after it started and missed the frontline announcement.

I think it would be a good map to play if there were fewer flags but on a populated Sat night with some people who don't play all the time it seemed a little confusing. Thanks to greasey for making the effort to mix it up.

**FBmantis** · 10-12-2008, 02:38 PM

Conquest is the standard, I just like spicing things up with frontline maps or other things some nights. Usually it goes well...other times it doesn't and players just can't work outside their comfort zone.

**WhiskeySix** · 10-12-2008, 02:44 PM

I considered myself fairly fluent in FL, but I have NO IDEA which flags either team should be attacking/defending here.

My personal preference would be to ditch the neutral flags, and instead have them show their owner. Then the frontline would simply be where the two opponent flags are "touching". Either that or add half neutral/half faction flags - then you'd know they're behind the frontline, but still have a better sense for where the frontline is.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 10-12-2008, 03:03 PM

I had hoped that the flag numbers would help orient the players but that seems to have failed. I guess this one just did not work out.

**Namebot** · 10-12-2008, 03:05 PM

UKR:

starts @1

proceed 1234567

GER:

starts @7

proceed 7654321

Other than that it is regular frontlines. Meaning your team holds one flag at a time and has to capture the next flag in sequence to advance.

The only thing I can think of to help would be to use some sort of marker on the next flag in the sequence, such as the sword.

**jb4** · 10-12-2008, 03:08 PM

Maybe movement like this would be easier to follow. Clockwise/Counterclockwise. The red line is the UKR path since you can't see the text on the map. Moving the points would mirror them on the map so you would not have to think about it too much. <shrugs> Fighting at the far end could be a real triangle of death.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 10-12-2008, 03:40 PM

The reason I did not skip the crash site was because I was worried it would be too far between points on the Ukraine side and most importantly, I wanted the Flag 4 (Normal Ukraine main) to be the "center" of the map where most of the action would take place. I have always felt it was a cool flag but it never sees any action.

**sordavie** · 10-12-2008, 04:27 PM

Maybe some on the GER team got confused because they didn't realize they had to count backward.

**jb4** · 10-12-2008, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet

The reason I did not skip the crash site was because I was worried it would be too far between points on the Ukraine side and most importantly, I wanted the Flag 4 (Normal Ukraine main) to be the "center" of the map where most of the action would take place. I have always felt it was a cool flag but it never sees any action.

I am not suggesting skipping it, just moving it (#2) out toward the western boundary to be in line with the attack path and then have point #3 moved closer (south) to point #4 (typical UKR main). That way the distance for UKR to attack 1-2-3 would be the same as the GER attacking 7-6-5 and both worlds would collide at #4 and all hell would break loose. I am making a big assumption that moving things around is easy or possible. I am not the map modeler and that may not be worth the trouble.

On a separate note, I remember from playing PR in the past that they used to have the objective always listed in the corner of the screen while you were playing and it was a constant reminder of what you needed to do to progress without having to use the big map.

**[tR]Greasy_mullet** · 10-12-2008, 06:18 PM

Ok but would you just stick the flag in the woods with nothing there? Fallen is nothing but tree, craters, and rocks. The flags are pretty much the only area with anything there. If one flag got pushed to its back, it would be a total slaughter when players spawn if they were all in the open. 1 MG3 could take out the whole team.

I don't know, just tossing out my point of view here. I went over this a bunch of time with my other mappers and more dedicated testers (Mantis in particular) to try and come up with something.

**jb4** · 10-12-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [tR]Greasy_mullet

Ok but would you just stick the flag in the woods with nothing there?
I don't know, just tossing out my point of view here. I went over this a bunch of time with my other mappers and more dedicated testers (Mantis in particular) to try and come up with something.

No, not in the open. My map mock up was just to express the general concept of going more with a linear attack path since that seems easier for more people to understand that may not be familiar with frontlines. My assumption was that you may be able to "drag and drop" a CP and surrounding terrain to a different part of the map. Clearly, if you have looked at different ways to lay it out within what is possible within the map then that is that. Maybe it is just as simple for a better "call out" on the map to lead toward the next objective. The regulars know what to do regardless, but we don't want the new people to potentially sour on frontlines mode since, IMO, it is a nice change of pace especially on a great map like Fallen. Maybe we just need to play it more.

Even if you did have a CP that was out in the woods, that would be similar to other really tough spots on some other frontline maps like Orel and Olesko Keep. On Orel as UKR if you get pushed back to Farm and you are trying to get Lumbermill back it can be brutal hell because of the tight boundary on the south through the buildings and all of the open hillside you have to cross on the north. On Olesko Keep, if your are UKR and get pushed back to Gatehouse (?the point on the south side of the castle that overlooks UKR spawn) it is a brutal fight uphill with the GER having high ground to defend across the board. If you had a point in the tree line on Fallen it would not be totally exposed. Personally, I think that map would be won or lost between points 3-4-5. Again, just brainstorming. If you have looked at all the options then we just need to play it more and possibly have more prominent "call-outs" to the next objective.