Re: This has gone far enough!

**HiTest** · 11-05-2008, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by [edf]_eflight

maybe they just got tired of being in a vehicle that keeps driving over the same mine, time and time and time and time again.

bingo.

**Fighter** · 11-05-2008, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Amdak

Uhm...Wheres the problem? They hear your voice, decide that youre probably a 13 year old kid that has no clue what hes doing as SL and would explain his orders with "Because thats what i want you to do" rather than a rational explanation so they decide not to be in your squad. Sounds like a fairly reasonable thing to me.
Hell, just you making a deal out of it goes to show that youre taking both yourself and the game far too seriously to be respected even the slightest.

Why not? Its just an online game, the best solution for this whole thing is to just laugh it off.

Wow thanks.

Anyway thanks for all the supportive posts guys. I am now going to do what Rockford has been saying. I might try without VOIP except for the briefing. Now lets all keep these things in mind and lets go kill some people!

**Axis of Eeevil** · 11-05-2008, 08:29 PM

I agree with much of the responses above.

I think this is a bigger can of worms than you were ready to open, but since it IS open, I'll respond too.

I'm the one who started the "footie pajamas" joke and I have teased you about your voice too. When you take it in stride and laugh along, I respect you and think "Man, what a cool kid". I have also heard a bit too much teasing at times over TS, and have refrained from joining in, even though I was tempted. Why does this type of teasing occur? Two reasons, I believe.

One is that you're the youngest in the group. It's just an automatic male response when in a group to make the youngest member "the kid", and that member has an uphill climb to win respect. The kind of teasing you get is gentle and humorous, which indicates we like you, and and some ways respect you. It is our job to keep our expectations reasonable, and not come down on you too hard, and some of us may want to give you pointers and be a bit more like a pal. At times, any one of us may only barely be able to tolerate having you around. This is where the second reason comes in.

There are certain kinds of jokes that only work with peers of your own age. When a kid tries to give an adult-to-adult type of joking insult or verbal repartee, it usually feels inappropriate and falls flat. You are a fellow TG member, but you'll never be our equal in age and experience. It's not a prejudice we have, it's just the way society works. You need to keep your expectations of us realistic too. We don't mind a 13 year-old playing with us as long as a certain level of respect and humbleness is forthcoming. That line is crossed fairly often. It is particularly irritating when a 13 year-old is indignant when he is treated as a 13 year-old instead of a 20+ year-old. Especially when he's being very thirteenish in behavior. This is where our fair expectations come in. WE shouldn't expect anything more than for you to be a nice kid who is silly and talkative, then serious and intelligent, then boneheaded and stubborn, then indignant and imperious and finally back to talkative, all within a space of 10 minutes. We will also exp[ect you to pipe down when your voice has been incessant and we have made several comments about it. Take the hint and leave the comm alone, with only the most basic information being related. I tend to be a bit talkative too--when I know it's time to shut up, I try to pretend I'm Mantis...he talks about as much as a Terminator.

I think the main difficulty here is coming from your expectations being a bit out of line. You expect us to not tease you when you are being obnoxious and won't stop. You want to be able to tease us like an adult, except you don't have judgement to know how and when--but you want us to just accept it without complaint, or even laugh, and that can be a real strain. I haven't squadded with many others who have been so quick as you are to criticize or kick. One minute you're serious, the next your silly.

It's very hard for anyone over 20 to respond the way you want every time. You're the junior member among us. I think we need to see you just act like it, naturally, without getting a bug up your butt when you're treated as the junior member. Just say "Guys, I'm having a crap day, so if you tease me, don't expect me to take it very well." We can all understand that, and try to adjust our behavior ro acommodate. However, you must be the one to do most of the accommodations. There's one of you and a whole bunch of us, and this is how we play and interact. We welcome you to play with us, but it's going to be mostly on our terms, not yours.

As a fellow Irregular and Platoon-mate, I want to be on your side and help you navigate through this sometimes difficult-to-understand community. Right now though, you aren't in a position to demand anything of us except the type of respect we can have for a 13 year-old--and that may not be good enough for you. If you want more from us than that, you'll have to earn it, just like the rest of us do.

I believe that you can and have already done this, but it seems that as soon as you gain some social capital, you spend it again, and as a result, your social standing has not climbed as much as you would like. You have to decide if it is worth the hard work to gain it and keep it.

**ParkBench** · 11-06-2008, 09:11 AM

nicely put Axis...

I'll only add one piece of advice... being a chatty person...

when loading up for the evening... join TS... then wait... wait 5 mins before saying hello everyone / mic check / whatever... and you've played long enough and been in TS you know the chattier folks. If its not a particularly 'busy' night, and chatter is light... help continue that... and carry that over into SL VOIP.

I'm a chatty SL too. But I do SL differently than many. I try and be little CO when I'm SL. trying to spot as much as I can, and I call out incoming enemies (with directions, at least I try)

other than that... don't let it all get to you. take a week off. I do it all the time. when you come back.. don't rush to be SL. just cause there isn't a TG squad within 5 seconds of the map loaded, doesn't mean there won't be... and join some pubby squads. If the SL isn't doing the job, leave, and find another. yeah we know the TG squads fill up fast...

think about what makes the game fun for you.

for me, its dying 24 times to shock paddle a sniper once or simply watching York fly copters, or swimming from the ship on aces to the radius... ok the last one isn't fun at all...

and if you ever feel I'm teasing you too much (which I do try to be equal opportunity with that.) hit me with a PM.. though, I'm not playing every night, I do check the forums near daily.

sometimes the comments in TS and VOIP are fueled by 'grown up' Dr. Pepper... beer effects more than the goggles. Don't try and compete with an alcohol inspired voice in your ear... oh and get yourself some Smiths records.

-bench

**Wicks** · 11-06-2008, 10:07 AM

I have to say that I am a little disappointed with the tone of some of the replies in this thread, some display the inherent lack of respect and bias that fighter is talking about. Yes some younger players are excitable and possibly don't always make the right decisions, so do the older players. Due to the age spread on our PR server I have had more problems with older players than I have had with our younger ones, there are more older players basically. We should respect all players equally.

Fighter, you cannot expect everyone to stay in your squad once they join. Some people will just up and leave, regardless of how well you lead, for a myriad of reasons. If a player leaves for petty reasons, let them go, you don't need them or want them. Don't get dragged into a cycle of trying to prove yourself to people who don't understand the TG ethos and possibly never will. Do keep trying to play in a mature, team first way, you will earn the respect of the right players and enjoy yourself a lot more.

One thing I will add fighter, if this keeps happening on the PR server you can invite me to your squad anytime if I'm not leading. I am more than happy to refresh any problem players on the standards expected at TG.

**HiTest** · 11-06-2008, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by A.WICKENS

Don't get dragged into a cycle of trying to prove yourself to people who don't understand the TG ethos and possibly never will.

You have got to be kidding me. The people that posted in this thread are all about the TG ethos.

**Wicks** · 11-06-2008, 10:31 AM

Apologies for the double post, first was unfinished and I had a computer problem.

I posted in this POE thread because I have seen a rash of these posts in the PR forums and it is a problem I have personally intervened in before on the PR side. So yes I am serious, at no point did I accuse anyone posting of not understanding the TG ethos, I was referring to the general problem that a lot of younger players face on our servers.

I did say that I felt some of the posts displayed some of the inherent bias that appears to be the problem. Far too often when younger players ask for help lately they receive what I personally consider to be nothing more than justification for the treatment they have received. Sadly the treatment I have seen on (thankfully) rare occasions on the PR server has been nothing more than bullying by players only a handful of years older than the victim. I am sure that this is not the case on POE, I have not played for a long time. What I am driving at is that whilst players like fighter have a lot to learn, should we not throttle our expectations slightly and shoulder some of the responsibility to bring those players along. Maybe it's just my age sadly but I do think we have a duty to try to encourage and develop the younger players. I do appreciate some of the posts share similar sentiments.

**ParkBench** · 11-06-2008, 12:12 PM

hey Wick, seriously dude. I got treated poorly on the PR server, and never went back... and sometimes when a PR regular comes to mix it up with us, they can be a bit harsh...
its not an age thing... and I don't think its a noob thing...

there's the TG ethos, and then there is the TG-PR ethos.

Fighter's original complaint / post was about folks joining, and then quitting his Squad, when they heard a younger voice. And honestly, I think its his right to express his feelings, but his initial complaint will never reach the people it needs to. I've been in his squads, and never had issues... I've been there with Rockford, trying to give Fighter another point of view on leading. All of have been there.

Each of the points in this thread have been valid... You're right we need to encourage the younger generations of players... and those of us in the POE TS channel... DO THAT.
A thread such as this... well needs to be understood, fighter, buddy.. you know. you post a concern like this to the group, and you're going to get all sort of responses... If you don't want to hear the negative ones... then you're using the wrong platform to express concerns.

I don't particularly see anything in this thread that hasn't been said before in TS chat. or in other threads... We all good nights and bad.

I join squads... and sometimes I have to leave them. TG SL, or pubby SL. If I can't work with the group... then I need to find another group. There are some players, TG or not that my strengths do not gel with.

the voice doesn't matter.
barking alot can... leading attacks on well defended flags... cause the squad to spawn a million miles away, can... going sniper, can, jumping in a plane and not giving attack / move / defend points can.

**ThaGoat** · 11-06-2008, 01:17 PM

The TG ethos is why we post and react to these posts. You sir, call in the age factor also, please feel free to check mine. I dont expect anymore from my (5) five real life kids who range from the ages of 21 to 10 than I do of Fighter being 13. I also have to disagree on "throttling" expectations. If anything, I expect Fighter to always be on my level of expectation or higher. If I expected any less of him, then I'm doing nothing more than waiting for him to fail.

The people who react to him in this thread have squad'd with him, talked to him in TS. We care about Fighter, but we are not gonna baby him. You may see bullying on the PR server. Your not gonna see him bullied here. We will correct him...hell we've corrected each other. Fighter has alot to learn on many levels. He's not stupid, he plays the game well. But sometimes he farts and runs a fully loaded dingo over a mine.....more than once.....in the same round. He just needs to learn where that stops being funny. And when your 13 playing in a server where 98% of the other players are over 21 can be an uphill climb.....but hes learning how to deal with that. He just needs to stop letting things get to him and to LISTEN....he'll get there.

**Wicks** · 11-06-2008, 04:56 PM

ThaGoat I fully understand what you are saying, good points, well made sir.

I do stick by my point regarding throttling of expectations though, to do anything else would be unrealistic and I believe unfair. Everyone has a learning curve when starting out be it POE, PR or life. (I am of course not referring to poor behaviour or rudeness). It's the same reason admin's issue warnings before kicking players. If a younger player slips below the standard of mature play whilst in one of my PR squads I explain what is expected of them and try to bring them up to scratch. Yes I do make a small allowance for younger players and perhaps make a little more effort in explaining things than I would to a player in his late twenties. I don't actually think that unreasonable. In the same way that I don't expect a grown man to act like a child I don't always expect a child to act with the wisdom and maturity of a grown man.

However once I have explained to the younger player, that's it, no more soft soap and certainly no justification. They toe the line or they get dealt with. In my experience the younger ones do toe the line, it's the older ones that give me the ulcers.

Anyway I will leave you gentleman to your business.

**HiTest** · 11-06-2008, 06:04 PM

Thank you Wickens for stopping by and giving your opinion. Much appreciated.

**ProjectNA** · 11-06-2008, 07:41 PM

Wrap all this up and we have:

- people play for different reasons, don't be surprised if your SL style doesn't please everyone - some are quite serious, some aren't, find the style that suits you and look for those SLs
- if there are things you are doing as SL that, well, don't please anyone, you may want to look at that
- we liked Killer before, and we like him now, however there are some things he can work on to make being in his squad more enjoyable - maybe less chatting, maybe less serious, and maybe not yelling at Project for little mistakes like leaving him hanging in the turret of an APC while he went to knife someone
- titles of threads often set the whole tone of the thread, don't be surprised if you get what you ask for and then some
- we are part of this community so people can get this kind of feedback and discuss these types of things

**Fighter** · 11-06-2008, 08:34 PM

Allright I guess I'll put the final touches on this thread:
Referring to my original post: I tend to say things I don't really mean when I'm angry, but the main idea of it was firm.

Referring to Axis, Wickens, Goat, and ParkBench: I know that I talk alot in TS and I'm really working at it and I believe I'm making progress at it...but I could work more at it. As for in-game, I'd never thought I talked alot in the comms, but now I'm looking back at it and realizing I talk alot more than I should. Thats just one point.
I tease too much at Project and the others now that I think about it.

I've read each and every one of these posts thoroughly and I don't know what more to say. I would lock it, but I'm going to leave it in case anyone wants to bring up another point.

**ProjectNA** · 11-06-2008, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fighter

I tease too much at Project and the others now that I think about it.

I've read each and every one of these posts thoroughly and I don't know what more to say. I would lock it, but I'm going to leave it in case anyone wants to bring up another point.

Ok, I'll bite.

If we can't tease each other, we might as well just go play PR (kidding!). Loosen up, have some fun, its only a game (gasp!), and rib right back. Its what we do. Name your squad CHATTY just to warn people. I've used it before, when I'm feeling even more talkative than usual, but then again I've used SLURRING just to warn people about other stuff. Name it QUIET just to remind yourself to not talk 'too much'. Heck, I still do the VoIP death comment every time I die, I'm surprised anyone gets in my squads that must be annoying as hell.

Ok, you can lock it now. I'm hopping on TS to annoy people.

**Fighter** · 11-06-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by ProjectNA

Ok, I'll bite.

If we can't tease each other, we might as well just go play PR (kidding!). Loosen up, have some fun, its only a game (gasp!), and rib right back. Its what we do. Name your squad CHATTY just to warn people. I've used it before, when I'm feeling even more talkative than usual, but then again I've used SLURRING just to warn people about other stuff. Name it QUIET just to remind yourself to not talk 'too much'. Heck, I still do the VoIP death comment every time I die, I'm surprised anyone gets in my squads that must be annoying as hell.

Ok, you can lock it now. I'm hopping on TS to annoy people.

Ummm okay, consider this locked unless someone else wants to say something....

Meh take that back, I'll let the moderators do their job...

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